Boxster S for Carrera swap?
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12-06-2010, 09:12 PM
#17
Instructor
Thread Starter
thanks for the great comments. Good insight especially the ease in 'going backwards'. I have posted the same thread on the Boxster board with no comments received. Guess I'm viewed as a traitor.....
Leaning heavily toward the old 911 - but waiting until I pick up the Cayman to experience it first. That said, I sure had a great time driving the Boxster today! Too cold to put the top down but those heated seats sure came in nice today.....
Leaning heavily toward the old 911 - but waiting until I pick up the Cayman to experience it first. That said, I sure had a great time driving the Boxster today! Too cold to put the top down but those heated seats sure came in nice today.....
12-06-2010, 09:30 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
I think it is just that we are more passionate here. We view you a "reborn" or enlightened.
12-06-2010, 10:52 PM
#20
I have a 2008 base Boxster for a daily driver when it's not very nice out and a 1984 911 for everyday when it's not raining or salt is on the road. I also have a 964 that hides in the garage most of the year. I had an '02 base Boxster and a beloved '86 911 years ago. Some observations from 15 years of Porsche ownership:
A Boxster's handling is nearly telepathic. Point and the car goes. Extremely neutral handling (as you would expect). For those of you who have not driven a Boxster, you should. It's damn fun. Even more fun with the top down (even to a purist guy like me that thinks a coupe is the only body style to have).
Brakes in the Boxster and old 911 are nearly identical in feel. Porsche hasn't changed that "brick wall" pedal feel that we all love. I would suspect that the big brakes on an "S" Boxster would out brake an older 911.
The M96/M97 motor in the '97 to '08 Boxsters is a gritty sounding b!tch at full tilt. Especially right behind your head. It's a wonderful motor (if it's not throwing it's IMS bearing) in power delivery and sound. These motors can be made bullet proof with an IMS bearing update. Bottom ends and valve trains are indestructible and the manual transmissions simply won't break.
My 2008 Boxster has the exact same nailed down on center road feel as my 1984 and my 1990. My brother's lot of 911's drive the same. Porsche has not changed that intangible feel for decades. They all go down the road like a million bucks.
Contrary to what most people say, the older 911's cost money to keep in top condition (how they left the factory). Everyone's 911 still runs, but does it run well and as well as it did when it was new? Most of us (including me) never knew how these cars were right from the factory. All of these cars are old and most everything on a used 911 probably needs a good refresh to get back to factory condition or to make dead nuts reliable for a daily driver. Do you really want to trust that 23 year old starter with 130,000 miles on it or the brake lines that have not been new since 1987? Replace the entire suspension (yeah, all of it, not just the sway bar bushings) on an old 911 with all new factory components and you'll be amazed at how well it rides and handles for a car designed in the early '60's. All of these cars are at least $30k to buy all restored or to buy cheap and then restore yourself.
The '08 Boxster is great from a reliability stand point (it has the best predicted reliability of all automobiles according to a recent Consumer Reports article) and it's a very fun to drive modern car. My '02 Boxster was more raw than the '08 Boxster. I miss the '02 a bit...
However, If I had to pick just one to keep, I really prefer the '84 for everyday because as I get older, I'm finding I'm enjoying working a bit more while driving. If you really enjoy driving, an older air cooled 911 really is a special car. Even if you had 2 million bucks to spend on a new car, they don't make anything as raw as a torsion bar 911.
A Boxster's handling is nearly telepathic. Point and the car goes. Extremely neutral handling (as you would expect). For those of you who have not driven a Boxster, you should. It's damn fun. Even more fun with the top down (even to a purist guy like me that thinks a coupe is the only body style to have).
Brakes in the Boxster and old 911 are nearly identical in feel. Porsche hasn't changed that "brick wall" pedal feel that we all love. I would suspect that the big brakes on an "S" Boxster would out brake an older 911.
The M96/M97 motor in the '97 to '08 Boxsters is a gritty sounding b!tch at full tilt. Especially right behind your head. It's a wonderful motor (if it's not throwing it's IMS bearing) in power delivery and sound. These motors can be made bullet proof with an IMS bearing update. Bottom ends and valve trains are indestructible and the manual transmissions simply won't break.
My 2008 Boxster has the exact same nailed down on center road feel as my 1984 and my 1990. My brother's lot of 911's drive the same. Porsche has not changed that intangible feel for decades. They all go down the road like a million bucks.
Contrary to what most people say, the older 911's cost money to keep in top condition (how they left the factory). Everyone's 911 still runs, but does it run well and as well as it did when it was new? Most of us (including me) never knew how these cars were right from the factory. All of these cars are old and most everything on a used 911 probably needs a good refresh to get back to factory condition or to make dead nuts reliable for a daily driver. Do you really want to trust that 23 year old starter with 130,000 miles on it or the brake lines that have not been new since 1987? Replace the entire suspension (yeah, all of it, not just the sway bar bushings) on an old 911 with all new factory components and you'll be amazed at how well it rides and handles for a car designed in the early '60's. All of these cars are at least $30k to buy all restored or to buy cheap and then restore yourself.
The '08 Boxster is great from a reliability stand point (it has the best predicted reliability of all automobiles according to a recent Consumer Reports article) and it's a very fun to drive modern car. My '02 Boxster was more raw than the '08 Boxster. I miss the '02 a bit...
However, If I had to pick just one to keep, I really prefer the '84 for everyday because as I get older, I'm finding I'm enjoying working a bit more while driving. If you really enjoy driving, an older air cooled 911 really is a special car. Even if you had 2 million bucks to spend on a new car, they don't make anything as raw as a torsion bar 911.
Last edited by Jay H; 12-06-2010 at 11:22 PM.
12-06-2010, 11:41 PM
#21
Yes! You gotta pause in neutral before moving on to the next gear with the Type 915 box.
Admittedly, I almost bought a nice '86 Carrera before snagging the track-prepped G50 '88 I have now; I didn't think I could make clean gear changes in the heat of the moment at full-tilt boogie on the track.
Agreed--the raw responses of the torsion bar suspension, the visceral feel of the driveline engaging the tarmac, the manual steering and brakes, the back end moving around under throttle--all air-cooled 911 traits, and all very addictive.
Admittedly, I almost bought a nice '86 Carrera before snagging the track-prepped G50 '88 I have now; I didn't think I could make clean gear changes in the heat of the moment at full-tilt boogie on the track.
Agreed--the raw responses of the torsion bar suspension, the visceral feel of the driveline engaging the tarmac, the manual steering and brakes, the back end moving around under throttle--all air-cooled 911 traits, and all very addictive.
IHowever, If I had to pick just one to keep, I really prefer the '84 for everyday because as I get older, I'm finding I'm enjoying working a bit more while driving. If you really enjoy driving, an older air cooled 911 really is a special car. Even if you had 2 million bucks to spend on a new car, they don't make anything as raw as a torsion bar 911.
12-07-2010, 01:01 AM
#22
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
"Working my way to a 901"
careful... that's how you end up w/ a 356.
Jay's post bears contemplation... a shortcut to wisdom for those who haven't alot of experience - & even those who do.
careful... that's how you end up w/ a 356.
Jay's post bears contemplation... a shortcut to wisdom for those who haven't alot of experience - & even those who do.
12-07-2010, 09:58 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
Contrary to what most people say, the older 911's cost money to keep in top condition (how they left the factory). Everyone's 911 still runs, but does it run well and as well as it did when it was new? Most of us (including me) never knew how these cars were right from the factory. All of these cars are old and most everything on a used 911 probably needs a good refresh to get back to factory condition or to make dead nuts reliable for a daily driver. Do you really want to trust that 23 year old starter with 130,000 miles on it or the brake lines that have not been new since 1987? Replace the entire suspension (yeah, all of it, not just the sway bar bushings) on an old 911 with all new factory components and you'll be amazed at how well it rides and handles for a car designed in the early '60's. All of these cars are at least $30k to buy all restored or to buy cheap and then restore yourself.
I could go on and on about what Ruby has cost. It all started with pulling the t-bars to replace the suspension bushings. Swaybar bushings were the cheapest part of that project.
When that was done and a good set of tires in place, I became fully aware of what the car is capable of, even as a lowly Targa. From there, it was all downhill from an expenditure point of view.
12-07-2010, 04:03 PM
#25
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I did the same thing - went from a 2001 Boxster S to an '87 Carrera. Frankly, I had modified the Boxster to the point that my next step would have been to put a 3.6 in it, and the benefit wouldn't match the cost. It was time for a new project.
Both are great cars, and 95% of the time is spent in the lower 2/3s of either car's capabilities. Where the 911 shines is in character. There's something about the windshield-in-your-face feeling and looking out over the fender lumps that makes it so much more fun. Plus, the Boxster and 911 are on opposite value curves so it was time to get an air-cooled car before they became too expensive - and before the Boxster was worth nothing.
If you make the move, you'll be glad you did.
Both are great cars, and 95% of the time is spent in the lower 2/3s of either car's capabilities. Where the 911 shines is in character. There's something about the windshield-in-your-face feeling and looking out over the fender lumps that makes it so much more fun. Plus, the Boxster and 911 are on opposite value curves so it was time to get an air-cooled car before they became too expensive - and before the Boxster was worth nothing.
If you make the move, you'll be glad you did.
12-07-2010, 06:18 PM
#26
Well then.. how do you reconcile the $10-15-20K crate motor price for a replacement Boxster motor? I'd be more worried about a M96 engine failure than having to rebuild an aircooled motor.
Boxster motors (m96) fail catastrophically and can't be rebuilt.
The aircooled motors can be rebuilt.
Boxster motors (m96) fail catastrophically and can't be rebuilt.
The aircooled motors can be rebuilt.
12-07-2010, 06:46 PM
#27
It's interesting to see recent threads about P owners going backwards in model years. As I have mentioned in another thread (996 section), I applaud and encourage folks to try older models to fully experience and appreciate Porsches. Here's a cut/paste of what I wrote:
"WRT going back in vintage as the next 911, I wouldn't do it if the car is primarily used as a daily driver...
In Ed's case where the car is not necessarily a daily commute vehicle, I support him all the way with going towards early 911s. My first 911 was a 72, which I didn't really appreciate until I've owned newer ones i.e. 80s impact bumper 911s. I also owned a 69 S, which I still miss at times. I turned it into a race car in the 90s and promptly beat newer 911s in POC stock class time trials. To paraphrase Mario Andretti, I'd rather take less weight over more horsepower to increase a car's performance.
In other words, I think to fully appreciate the 911s provenance/heritage, one should own or drive extensively an early 911. And to be fair, I would also urge 911 fans to try other Porsche models. For instance, I'd rather race wheel-to-wheel 914s and 944s over any 911 (ok, maybe except a 911 GT1). Due to product positioning tactics, such cars have been underrated. Admittingly, I've had more fun driving 944s and 914s at their limits compared to 911s, even though my first memorable racing experience was via a Porsche 911."
So, I say get the 3.2 Carrera especially if not used as a daily driver and you have the desire/wherewithal to experience such a car. I have gone up and down the Porsche years and model line up a few times. Nowadays, my car option boils down to its function: for daily driving, I would go newer. For a more raw, engaging driving experience, I would go older i.e. early 911, 914, 917, 910, 550, etc.
"WRT going back in vintage as the next 911, I wouldn't do it if the car is primarily used as a daily driver...
In Ed's case where the car is not necessarily a daily commute vehicle, I support him all the way with going towards early 911s. My first 911 was a 72, which I didn't really appreciate until I've owned newer ones i.e. 80s impact bumper 911s. I also owned a 69 S, which I still miss at times. I turned it into a race car in the 90s and promptly beat newer 911s in POC stock class time trials. To paraphrase Mario Andretti, I'd rather take less weight over more horsepower to increase a car's performance.
In other words, I think to fully appreciate the 911s provenance/heritage, one should own or drive extensively an early 911. And to be fair, I would also urge 911 fans to try other Porsche models. For instance, I'd rather race wheel-to-wheel 914s and 944s over any 911 (ok, maybe except a 911 GT1). Due to product positioning tactics, such cars have been underrated. Admittingly, I've had more fun driving 944s and 914s at their limits compared to 911s, even though my first memorable racing experience was via a Porsche 911."
So, I say get the 3.2 Carrera especially if not used as a daily driver and you have the desire/wherewithal to experience such a car. I have gone up and down the Porsche years and model line up a few times. Nowadays, my car option boils down to its function: for daily driving, I would go newer. For a more raw, engaging driving experience, I would go older i.e. early 911, 914, 917, 910, 550, etc.
12-07-2010, 10:17 PM
#28
The aftermarket is now catching up. Put in a Jake Raby kit for that Intermediate Shaft Bearing for about $2,000 (parts and labor) and the M96 is now essentially bullet proof.
12-07-2010, 11:12 PM
#29
Instructor
Thread Starter
Considered doing the IMS when I had the clutch replaced but saw no leaks and left it alone. Feeling more confident about it not exploding the more miles I put on it - 72K now. If it goes, I'd probably replace it with a used motor. The 911 would share DD duties with my '85 M3 - which is also my track car - but also has 130K miles on it. Short commute so the miles wouldn't rack up too quickly.
Thanks for the conversation. Won't be anytime real soon but will post a decision when I make it.
Thanks for the conversation. Won't be anytime real soon but will post a decision when I make it.
12-08-2010, 09:32 PM
#30
Jay H posted one of the best commentaries on older Porsche ownership I've ever read, and it raises one of the most interesting points about older P-car ownership.
All of our cars are unique now, because time has acted upon them in different ways. Factor in use, abuse, maintenance or lack thereof, climate, and every other variable, and you'll see that no two of these cars can be alike.
I wish I could trade places with all the other members of the 911 crew just for a day to see how their cars differ from mine, and that I could let them take a turn behind my wheel. With cars this old, it all comes down to upkeep, and maybe a bit of luck..because we're not usually the original owners. God knows what the previous owners did!
They'll all need something...but I've never owned a car that got under my skin like this one. It's my second wife...it demands a lot and is always reaching into my wallet, but I love it.
And yes, my first wife knows how I feel!
All of our cars are unique now, because time has acted upon them in different ways. Factor in use, abuse, maintenance or lack thereof, climate, and every other variable, and you'll see that no two of these cars can be alike.
I wish I could trade places with all the other members of the 911 crew just for a day to see how their cars differ from mine, and that I could let them take a turn behind my wheel. With cars this old, it all comes down to upkeep, and maybe a bit of luck..because we're not usually the original owners. God knows what the previous owners did!
They'll all need something...but I've never owned a car that got under my skin like this one. It's my second wife...it demands a lot and is always reaching into my wallet, but I love it.
And yes, my first wife knows how I feel!
Last edited by Helios59; 12-21-2010 at 12:37 PM.