whalebird

this is debatable, but not by me. I've had little experiance with the new cars. The numbers are hard to argue with though. I like the older cars, and the same with a Benz, the older the better. Some say that benz stopped making cars in 1972.

ked

obviously the "newest range-topping 911" is the best - always been that way (excusing the dark age of MY models in the US). however, one could just as easily argue that the GT2RS is "better" - whereupon someone would argue it isn't a 911 (do all arguments devolve to nomenclature & semantics?).

a more meaningful question might be - has the GT3 had the impact upon the world as (for instance) the '73 RS did in its time? is the GT3RS as dominating a racer, has it influenced the public & represented Porsche as well, has it engaged the emotions as did (& ever after, has) the RS?

GT3... GREAT new 911.
RS... Iconic GREAT old 911.

ricster

I have much experience with both old and new (work for a porsche store). I can tell you, of all the cars I have ever driven, which is the best of the best, the new GT3 and GT3RS is the best of the bunch and that includes the GT2.

ked

ric, I too have much experience w/ both old & new (as do many in the community) - started driving Porsches in '69. I think you may have missed my point, but hey! - everyone's got a point to miss. the discussion reminds me how much one's experiences colors opinion.
cheers!

from a recent comparo I was fortunate to take part in... the new cars are challenging to pass 'cause they're so damn wide. the Turbo is the easiest to drive & the RS was lotsa fun... but more fun than a '65 SC?

Makmov

and they keep making them wider. The new RSR is the widest one yet by almost 4 inches!

rusnak

My '84 and the '70 914-6 are perfect for these types of trips to the central California coast area. I have fond memories of parking on the grassy hillside of this bakery in Cambria, and then sharing pies and goodies with family in Morro Bay.

Track driving is sure fun, but touring is an entirely different animal. The older air cooled Porsches are so much fun when the object of the trip is the trip itself.

If you're going to do a weekend long trip to San Francisco, or to watch the 49ers, and need a car to pound around in with good torque, a good heater, and long range comfort, then I could see a water cooler fitting the bill.

Tango635

As far as looks, I really like the 911 better than the 964. Although, if I got into a 964RS, i might defect. Other people agree though, for example. The other day I pulled up next to a bus full of 5th graders. Several kids yealled, "hey mister nice car". At another stop light, a harley pilot started a conversation about how much horsepower and how fast my car was. Another day, I went down town around lunch time, I got so many looks from guys and girls, made me feel like a rockstar. I think I would get into trouble downtown, too much temptation. All that to say, the Carrera is an Icon. It is the car that a lot of people associate with for one reason or another. In terms of grabbing attention, it is probably the Ferrari of air cooled Porsches.

Overall, w00t has a good summary of points. There are other good points about the torrsion bar cars though. The one i've read that I hope one day will get to study more is repeatability at the handling limit. Our cars are supposedly much more repeatable as in able to take a line more consistently, I guess. This is according to a poster at Pelican that has tracked 964s and 993s. I don't know if it's true, but interesting comment.

Anyway, I'm really happy with my 911. I love staring down the hood and out at the open road, and I drive it almost every day, putting on about 70 miles per outing. I think once you drive them, you will know. And if you plan to tinker with it, remember what James Watt said, simplicity is supreme excellence.

Oh, about the AC. Rennair and Griifths offer some really nice kits. Depending on what's wrong with the AC, you could spend probably 1500 - 2500 and have a system that gives you <40 deg F on 90+ deg F days. Problem solved.

race911

They're not. Period. More entertaining, maybe. More work, which may translate to driver satisfaction. More on a razor edge, which may translate to moving the car around. But that's hell on tires.

Going to Sears Point in awhile. Separate race for Spec 911, as there are so many of them this weekend. I can query friends on what they think about repeatability versus Cup Cars and other later 911 purpose built race cars. I don't think anyone is enamored with the handling in Spec 911, they just learn to set up and drive what they have.

Tango635

Ken, it did sound odd to me that Porsche would re-design a suspension and make it worse. Maybe it wasn't an apples to apples comparison the guy did.

Would the "on a razor's edge" comment apply to a t-bar car that has a sorted suspension with vonn race shocks and a bunch of other ERP goodies? Do those parts serve to quell or reduce the snap oversteer these cars are known for? Any experience on a car prep'ed as such and compared to a tock 964 or 993?

Ed Hughes

I never liked the term snap oversteer. That sounds like an "impending doom" term coined by the media. Heck, maybe carryover from Ralph Nader? IMO, the best cure to any oversteer tendencies is track time. Trailing throttle oversteer, which is a more benign term in my opinion, and that used by many instructors, is best controlled by judicious use of your right foot, and re-training your brain on how it need to react when the rear breaks loose.

whalebird

+1111111. I belive it's a myth generated in the media. Track time is imparative in any performance car IMO.
The best method for a 911 is when in doubt - floor it.
I know it's a lot more technical than..as I state it, but a 911 is a predictable car in my experiance and favors a smooth driving style.
rusnak, great pictures. reminds me of my summer trip thru the Napa/Sonoma area a few years back: Jack London home, San Fran, big Sur, Carmel, Yosimite, Sacramento...et al. I could easily spend my senior years in those rolling grassy hills. Nothing like a little brake dust on the wheels...

rusnak

There are times when events conspire to produce snap ....er, trailing throttle oversteer. I was lit up by CHP ka band once while doing 90 in a sweeping right hander in light rain. Had to lift to get my speed/ fine lower. I ended up using two lanes very quickly. Instinct is to keep weight on the rear tires but snap the wheel over into the skid. You gotta do it blind, on pure reflex. I saved it, and the CHP officer's eyes were as big as dinner plates. I think years of dirt track racing and riding as a kid helped. The highway was a two lane rural stretch brtween here and the coast.

WB, you noticed, eh? I was in the middle of suspension rebuild tweaks, hence the missing rubber trim piece. I don't remember what I was doing with the lights. Probably that was when I was welding a nut into the left side bucket.

Makmov

It's not so much a myth as it is that a lot of, particularly Turbo owners were way over their heads in the car.

Oh oh the rear is breaking loose, first instinct to let off the gas, which only made it spin faster and usually found it's way into the nearest tree or telephone pole.

They didn't get the reputation they got for no good reason.

ked

People get over their heads in many ways. Muscle & Pony cars + teenagers made for lotsa "ran outta road" accidents in the '60s & 70s.

The history of Porsches & TTO is an interesting one. The suspension design that ended up in the 356 (& Beetle), evolving to the 911 (MacPhersons supplanting the frt trailing arms), started w/ the Auto Union P-Wagen of the '30s. If one studies the literature (Ludvigsen EWE & similar) it is clear that the reputation has been inherited more as myth (reinforced by Nader's Corvair critique) than reality. Once Porsche bit the bullet & started putting wider tires on the rear than on the front (on the P-Wagens, they just slapped on more tires on the rear), & sorting out the frt suspension, the issue became one of achieving targeted handling (& keeping up w/ the engine dept) rather than unmanageable proclivity to spin.

Anyone who has experienced TTO in a 356A will tell you that from the '70s forward, Porsche had it figured out & the result was pretty much their intent. Alot of what people think & say about Porsches & TTO these days is (imo) a combination of; a) I am a master of 911 handling so I must be a driving god & b) 911s are a stupid design that is intrinsically flawed & nothing can change that. quite a conspiracy.

whalebird

makmov, the Turbo's had shorter rear trailing arms to help with dive/squat and difficult to manage power delivery. I still think its a driver style thing. Hans Stuck Jr. told me once(in best accent) "I get more bugs on ze side window than the windshield...I go sideways around curve".

ked, the swingarm rear suspension (356, early VW) was a huge factor in TTO in the early cars. The AU p-wagons were so gracefully drifted in hillclimb form (twin tires). I think you're dead nuts on though with everything you said.