Lorenfb

"I have been considering the exact same install you just did - which is not uncommon I guess since it seems to be the most cost efficient package to gain some additional power and response for a 3.2."

So, now the 'performance' chip suppliers are packaging the muffler
with the 'performance' chip as was done when they packaged the
'performance' chip with a MAF sensor mod to raise the profit margin.
That mod didn't sell when all realized the 'performance' chip's timing
advance provided the actual 'performance', i.e. the seat-of-the-pants
'performance' feel, and not the MAF sensor mod.

Thus, the 'package' (MAF sensor) was a waste of money as this package
is, as most will discover. Besides, when one considers the increased cost
of using a higher octane fuel, i.e. because the 'performance' chip's increased
timing tweak, with a 'performance' chip, this mod alone has limited value,
notwithstanding the limited availability of a higher octane fuel (93+).
That problematic issue is rarely discussed.

Bottom line: Little to nothing can be gained from the 20+ year old
Porsche 3.2 engine without major engine mods. Money better spent
is a DE PCA club event.

Dave Thomas

"Bottom line: Little to nothing can be gained from the 20+ year old
Porsche 3.2 engine without major engine mods."

Bottom line: You couldn't be more wrong.

Carrera3.2LG50

Loren,

I bought my 3.2 911 last December and I joined Rennlist in April. I'll be the first to admit I am still in learning mode. However, I have been reading many many posts regarding modifications for these cars on both Rennlist and Pelican and there is much agreement that an SW Chip combined with an exhaust will make a noticeable difference in drivability for these cars.

As part of my post "research" I am well aware of your strong position against performance chips.

Now either you are right, the chip makers are liars and cheats, and all the buyers of these chips are fools, or... you are wrong. Based on the overwhelming positive response regarding performance chips, I have to think it's the latter. If something is not worth buying or is a sham, the typical participant on a car forum is not shy about letting everyone know.

Using a performance chip + exhaust is not something unusual in the enthusiast arena - they are used extensively with other marques such as BMW, Audi, Subaru, etc. and not just with turbo motors.

Please, I have no intention of continuing a point/counterpoint with you, this is GregB's post after all, and he was trying to share something fun and positive with us all. I just wanted to respond since you quoted me in your response.

Thank you,

Ed Hughes

Loren is right, but he provides the rationalization to go to a chip in his post. I think that he makes broad statements about a chip's utility, but he can correct me if I'm wrong, in that he does acknowledge that there is some ground to be gained in performance with a timing advance that coincides with higher octane fuel.

I bought my first SW chip in Texas where 93 octane was plentiful. It was programmed for 93 octane. When I moved back two years ago to Kalifornia, where we typically only see 91 for premium, I ran a 3:1 blend of 91/100 octane, which gave me a home blend of "93.5" IIRC, but I actually always erred on the side of conservativity, and probably ran closer to 2:1. It was a pain and it was expensive. But for a car that sees mostly Palomar Hillclimbs and a handful of trackdays a year and only gets 3-4000 miles a year, I felt it was worth it to keep that chip in. It was also mapped for my headers and 2 out muffler.

So, I think Loren's point about negligible gains stems from the standpoint of only being able to go so far in tune and keep in a realm of safety with regard to detonation when running pump gas. Especially true in Calif, which has a high concentration of "hobby" 911's. But, as octane levels are raised, the tune can be more aggressive, with some increase in HP. The owner would need to be diligent in this observance of octane.

When I took Ruby to Monterey week last year, I took 10 gallons of 100 octane with me on the trailer, which gave me at least two tanks of my blend for the weekend of driving. I could not have made the road trip in the car, due to the need to get 100 octane when needed.

Whether it is all worth it, remains up to the individual. Most of us have these cars for fun, and find they are cheaper than drug habits or hookers/Mistresses, so what the heck, IMO.

PS- It ain't all about HP. I think most concur that the car feels more drivable with Steve's chip.

Uber 911

I dropped an SW chip in mine a few months ago and it made a big improvement, I could keep up with my brothers 190bhp Westfeild. I'm running 95-98 ron - Its a Euro spec 1988 ie, no cat.

Carrera3.2LG50

Ed,
Thanks for your input. I understand that a chip and exhaust can only do so much for these motors. I think we know that it's not going to gain us huge HP, but better driveability and a marginal torque increase all around. I know these chips can be programmed for both 91 and 93 octane. Here on the east coast, 93 is readily available although I would consider getting one programmed for 91 just to be on the safe side.

The point is that just about everyone who installs a SW Chip has indicated it has made a seat-of-the-pants difference in driving feel and that's what I would be looking for since I'm not interested in breaking into the engine at this time for HP gains like you did. It sounds to me that GregB would concur with the results. (Remember GregB? He started the post...)

GregB, I would welcome some installation pics whether you post them here or PM me. Also, looking forward to some sound clips to hear how the combination of the M&K pre-muffler and 1-1 muffler sounds on these engines.

Loren, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I am certainly not a technical expert in any way shape or form - I'm just trying to compile as much information as I can to make an informed decision.

I appreciate everyone's opinion and input on this board which I've found to be extremely helpful to me as I learn more about my wonderful 911.

GregB - sorry your post got a little highjacked...

Ed Hughes

I guess I didn't make my point. I was not saying a chip was not a decent improvement. I had a chip and modded exhaust long before my engine ever came apart.

ANY time someone posts a thread on chips, this discussion seems to happen. It is not a case of hijacking, but carrying on discussion on chips.

Lorenfb

"Bottom line: Little to nothing can be gained from the 20+ year old
Porsche 3.2 engine without major engine mods."

Of anyone on this thread, Ed knows more about 3.2 engine building than
most Rennlisters and even more than some Porsche shops. He has spent
a lot time investigating most 3.2 mods. He knows the merits and non-merits
of most mods and thus what's a waste of time and/or money from actual
experience.

rusnak

with our crap gas made from corn, and Lord knows what, combined with my propensity to drive far and wide and well beyond the reach of known suppliers of racing gas, I elect to stick to the stock chip.

GregB

Hi Guys,

For some reason I didn't get the "notify" email that this thread had been updated. It looks like I've started another thread filled with controversy. Sorry about that.

With respect to the differing opinions, I can only offer my own personal experience....

The Steve Wong chip can be ordered with programming in either 91 or 93 octane versions (depending on your geography, and desire to run premium fuels). You can also choose from a couple of higher rev-limits...again based on what you want. It's not a one-size-fits-all chip, and Steve doesn't "pimp" the exhaust... he even commented that perhaps 75% of the HP gain can be realized even through a stock exhaust. Living on the East Coast it is a LOT easier to find 93 octane fuel....I certainly would never choose that chip when I lived in CA. The fuel formulations there are horrible. To avoid issues, I actually ordered the 91 octane chip and the lowest rev-limit (though still higher than stock) available. The 1-in-1-out exhaust was the most "safe" option from a noise perspective as well (quietest). I don't enjoy hearing imports with coffee can exhaust notes....and didn't want to create a German version of the same thing.



Here are a few pics of my install:

Stock exhaust: (All appear original from 1989) The weight savings between these parts is amazing. I think the new system claims about a 30Lb reduction and I believe it.




Underneath shot with exhaust and cat removed. I lucked out, the O2 sensor came off easily and was simply swapped over to the new pre-muffler without incident.



The DME brain removed from under seat.



The original chip, prior to replacement:





On my quick initial test drive, I quickly realized that I didn't want to be on the roads without my ValentineOne, and the blasts through the first three gears had me at 80+ mph in short order....leaving me feeling a bit vulnerable.

The exhaust "sound" is going to be hard to capture on video/audio. I realize that the YouTube clips I've watched aren't really a fair assessment of the sound either at idle or at speed. I'm going to take the car out to a customer call today, so I'll have a longer period of time to evaluate this change and report back.... and yes, I'll remember to install the V1 this time around.

I still need to order that new DME relay.... hope my luck holds for a few days longer.

-G

Helios59

Greg,
Thanks for the pics! Glad you're enjoying it.

How did the chip installation go? Steve's instructions seem easy enough, but I just worry I might get something wrong or otherwise break stuff.

GregB

The chip swap was easier than getting the 10mm bolts off the DME box. Seriously.

Come up to NH if you're concerned about it, I'll plug the chip in for ya!

So far so good... I got to my customer site and the car started every time. We'll see if she gets me home too...

Carrera3.2LG50

Greg,

Thanks for the pics and comments. I was wondering why you were silent in the midst of the controversy.

The workmanship on the M&K exhaust looks really good. Sounds like you had a relatively straightforward installation once you got the right tools. Any tips or problems on the exhaust install? I'm trying to decide whether I want to tackle this myself or wimp out and have a shop do it.

Thanks,

rusnak

I like the placement of the primary (dme) O2 sensor bung. If you have a second one installed, then you can run an LM-1 with the dme and check it's operation.

Ed Hughes

Exhaust nut removal is the only tough task in any of this. The wise man will either use heat via oxy-acetylene or dremel the old nuts off. Both procedures are well documented and required to avoid broken studs. Many have done this successfully.