'86 911 vs '90 964
05-25-2010, 04:36 PM
#32
Cruisin'
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I'd consider a 964 but absolutely not an early one like a '90 with the DMF and head leak issues. Only late '91-later after they fixed them. For a DD, I'd give the nod to the 964 as it's more comfortable and if you're going to sit in L.A. traffic in the summer, you're going to want decent A/C, which you won't get in a 911 without very expensive upgrades.
1. Engine oil leakage will not occur (for a long while) after the "fix" has been installed for the pre-1991 engines. New gaskets and seals?
2. The DMF issues will be *solved* with the installation of a LUK DMF.
Can anybody attest to the above?
Also, what is the life expectancy of the 964 engine? The 911 3.2s seems to be lasting well into the 200k miles. How about the 964 3.6L? I am looking at a 3.6 with approx 90k on the clock...how much life can I expect from it? (Granted that I keep up to date with 15k mile valve adjustments, oil, and all other service/maintenance.)
Thanks for the input
05-25-2010, 04:51 PM
#33
Race Director
Well, first of all, they are still making new water-cooled motors, so who cares about them?
Secondly, they don't make our cars any more, and they are expensive to rebuild, so we all should be conscientious custodians.
Short trips are hard on all engines, but again, on new cars, they are probably newer and the engines are relatively cheap to fix. And most people won't hold on to them as long as one of us will keep our car.
Secondly, they don't make our cars any more, and they are expensive to rebuild, so we all should be conscientious custodians.
Short trips are hard on all engines, but again, on new cars, they are probably newer and the engines are relatively cheap to fix. And most people won't hold on to them as long as one of us will keep our car.
I'm not sure who the hell you are or even if I care. I made a comment that Hondas or Toyotas are better suited to 5 minute commutes, which I stand by. My next post took that theme a bit further in stating there are a lot of disposable cars out there.
To come here from under some rock, for all I know, and call me ignorant is pretty much an ignoramus, or douchebag move.
To come here from under some rock, for all I know, and call me ignorant is pretty much an ignoramus, or douchebag move.
Then Baby asks a relevant and useful question.
Then you proceed to spew nonsense about how they:
A) still make water cooled engines. 1. Its not like there is some magical shortage of 3.2 motors around, nor that an engine used in short trips can't be easily rebuilt. 2. As I'm sure you know, a watercooled GT3 engine costs more than some nice 993s are worth. 3. Doesn't answer the question.
B) All porsches are expensive to repair. Whether they make them anymore or not. Again, doesn't answer the gentleman's question.
C) Short trips are hard on all engines. Finally something I agree with.
D) But newer cars the engines are newer? Really, I would have never guessed. Then again, that still doesn't answer the question.
E) Engines are relatively cheap to fix? Maybe a low end 4 cylinder in a civic or corolla. You may be surprised what a DOHC V6 honda or toyota motor costs to fix. Then again, you still haven't answered the man's question. In fact, Baby did not reference any honda or toyota. Maybe he meant a water cooled S65 V12 from Mercedes which runs about $60,000. You think thats cheaper or more expensive to repair than a 3.2?
F) Most people won't hold onto them as long as you all do. 1) This is completely speculative and may have no basis in actual fact. 2) Doesn't answer Baby's question. 3) Who cares? With even somewhat regular oil changes and decent oil, even a car used on short trips should last at least a decade, if not 2 or more.
For a gentleman with as much knowledge as you allegedly possess, that was not a very good answer to Baby's question. Perhaps you were responding to someone else's post. Either way, your post was full of speculation, irrelevant, and unclear statements.
With regards to who I am, I could be CEO of Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG for all you know. However, it doesn't matter who I am. Your post made no sense and made some ignorant statements.
perhaps the true douchebag move here is to post nonsense instead of actually answering a question.
05-25-2010, 05:14 PM
#34
Instructor
Join Date: Nov 2005
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If I had your commute, the 964 or 911 would stay in the garage most days and I'd pedal my bicycle to/from work whenever possible.
As people have said, drive both and decide what suits you best. I am partial to the impact bumper cars, but must admit that the 964 series has been growing on me steadily. I would not be swayed by the alleged superiority of the 964 HVAC...there are aftermarket systems available that will make the 3.2 a/c function up to par. Yes it will cost a few thousand $, but if you are like many of the people that frequent this place, you will find that a few thousand $ is just a drop in the bucket once you get bitten by the modification/upgrade/restoration/preservation bug.
As people have said, drive both and decide what suits you best. I am partial to the impact bumper cars, but must admit that the 964 series has been growing on me steadily. I would not be swayed by the alleged superiority of the 964 HVAC...there are aftermarket systems available that will make the 3.2 a/c function up to par. Yes it will cost a few thousand $, but if you are like many of the people that frequent this place, you will find that a few thousand $ is just a drop in the bucket once you get bitten by the modification/upgrade/restoration/preservation bug.
05-25-2010, 06:47 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Follow along here, Mr. Ignorant. Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong suit. How many times do I have to point out that my responses were based on "Hondas and Toyotas". Never did I mention a GT3, a 996 or a 997. The point was/is the average commuter car serves its life, and then gets traded on or rehabbed to hand on to a daughter or son.
You come on to this forum out of the blue, and call me ignorant. You got the response you merit. Actually taking the time to respond further is an even bigger waste of my time. A click on your recent posts showed a number of "all-knowing and condescending" posts by you, IMO, and I think you used ignorant in three of them. It seems like you need to get a grip-we all apparently aren't as smart as you deem yourself to be.
You come on to this forum out of the blue, and call me ignorant. You got the response you merit. Actually taking the time to respond further is an even bigger waste of my time. A click on your recent posts showed a number of "all-knowing and condescending" posts by you, IMO, and I think you used ignorant in three of them. It seems like you need to get a grip-we all apparently aren't as smart as you deem yourself to be.
You know, your first post was not a problem, although even a lowly honda or toyota engine will be worn out more quickly by quick trips. Hence I didn't respond to your first post.
Then Baby asks a relevant and useful question.
Then you proceed to spew nonsense about how they:
A) still make water cooled engines. 1. Its not like there is some magical shortage of 3.2 motors around, nor that an engine used in short trips can't be easily rebuilt. 2. As I'm sure you know, a watercooled GT3 engine costs more than some nice 993s are worth. 3. Doesn't answer the question.
B) All porsches are expensive to repair. Whether they make them anymore or not. Again, doesn't answer the gentleman's question.
C) Short trips are hard on all engines. Finally something I agree with.
D) But newer cars the engines are newer? Really, I would have never guessed. Then again, that still doesn't answer the question.
E) Engines are relatively cheap to fix? Maybe a low end 4 cylinder in a civic or corolla. You may be surprised what a DOHC V6 honda or toyota motor costs to fix. Then again, you still haven't answered the man's question. In fact, Baby did not reference any honda or toyota. Maybe he meant a water cooled S65 V12 from Mercedes which runs about $60,000. You think thats cheaper or more expensive to repair than a 3.2?
F) Most people won't hold onto them as long as you all do. 1) This is completely speculative and may have no basis in actual fact. 2) Doesn't answer Baby's question. 3) Who cares? With even somewhat regular oil changes and decent oil, even a car used on short trips should last at least a decade, if not 2 or more.
For a gentleman with as much knowledge as you allegedly possess, that was not a very good answer to Baby's question. Perhaps you were responding to someone else's post. Either way, your post was full of speculation, irrelevant, and unclear statements.
With regards to who I am, I could be CEO of Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG for all you know. However, it doesn't matter who I am. Your post made no sense and made some ignorant statements.
perhaps the true douchebag move here is to post nonsense instead of actually answering a question.
Then Baby asks a relevant and useful question.
Then you proceed to spew nonsense about how they:
A) still make water cooled engines. 1. Its not like there is some magical shortage of 3.2 motors around, nor that an engine used in short trips can't be easily rebuilt. 2. As I'm sure you know, a watercooled GT3 engine costs more than some nice 993s are worth. 3. Doesn't answer the question.
B) All porsches are expensive to repair. Whether they make them anymore or not. Again, doesn't answer the gentleman's question.
C) Short trips are hard on all engines. Finally something I agree with.
D) But newer cars the engines are newer? Really, I would have never guessed. Then again, that still doesn't answer the question.
E) Engines are relatively cheap to fix? Maybe a low end 4 cylinder in a civic or corolla. You may be surprised what a DOHC V6 honda or toyota motor costs to fix. Then again, you still haven't answered the man's question. In fact, Baby did not reference any honda or toyota. Maybe he meant a water cooled S65 V12 from Mercedes which runs about $60,000. You think thats cheaper or more expensive to repair than a 3.2?
F) Most people won't hold onto them as long as you all do. 1) This is completely speculative and may have no basis in actual fact. 2) Doesn't answer Baby's question. 3) Who cares? With even somewhat regular oil changes and decent oil, even a car used on short trips should last at least a decade, if not 2 or more.
For a gentleman with as much knowledge as you allegedly possess, that was not a very good answer to Baby's question. Perhaps you were responding to someone else's post. Either way, your post was full of speculation, irrelevant, and unclear statements.
With regards to who I am, I could be CEO of Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG for all you know. However, it doesn't matter who I am. Your post made no sense and made some ignorant statements.
perhaps the true douchebag move here is to post nonsense instead of actually answering a question.
05-25-2010, 09:13 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
WTF people? I must say that I reread his request for info,..(he, in fact, listed the elements). There were no direct answers provided, as well,..
I would add that it would not matter to me (whatsoever) who I was replying to (don't give a sheeit about post count, years here, anything else),..so, say whatever you feel like saying (QC) ,..there are no "saviors" here... [[[Granted : great mechanics who do this day in/day out (THAT's a bit different,..and to be respected).]]]]
Back to point: start here:
His question::: ""Why are short trips so bad for air cooled motors as opposed to water cooled motors?""
Now, provide a "technical answer",..and directly.
And having lived 'round here for a while now, I wouldn't think this request would be too much to ask of Ed ?..
NOW,..for the answers, no?
As to the OP's original,.................................
YOU, sir, will need to buy both !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best to all (no fights),
I would add that it would not matter to me (whatsoever) who I was replying to (don't give a sheeit about post count, years here, anything else),..so, say whatever you feel like saying (QC) ,..there are no "saviors" here... [[[Granted : great mechanics who do this day in/day out (THAT's a bit different,..and to be respected).]]]]
Back to point: start here:
His question::: ""Why are short trips so bad for air cooled motors as opposed to water cooled motors?""
Now, provide a "technical answer",..and directly.
And having lived 'round here for a while now, I wouldn't think this request would be too much to ask of Ed ?..
NOW,..for the answers, no?
As to the OP's original,.................................
YOU, sir, will need to buy both !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best to all (no fights),
05-25-2010, 09:33 PM
#38
Instructor
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Palo Alto
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I'm what , 22 years old, and I am impressed at how immature some people on this site are. I'm sure lots of you are twice my age. Some people just can't let stuff go. Reminds me of middle school.
Krafty Kid: Does sitting in traffic for 10, 20, 30 minutes each way every day sound like a good time? Do you have a bicycle? Sitting in traffic in an old 911 absolutely BLOWS.
Krafty Kid: Does sitting in traffic for 10, 20, 30 minutes each way every day sound like a good time? Do you have a bicycle? Sitting in traffic in an old 911 absolutely BLOWS.
05-25-2010, 09:37 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
That's BS Doyle. I don't stand behind post counts or tenure. Never have, and never will. There are a lot of jokers who line up thousands of posts in OT, or with one line responses to every thread they see. I've also never claimed to be an expert in anything here. All of my contribution is based on my own experiences. I tend to stay out of stuff on which I have no opinion or value to add. Hence, a relatively low post count since 2002.
In spite of my ignorance, I've managed to do an awful lot to my car in 9 years, and have had a lot of mechanical toys in the decades I've been driving and playing, so I think I can weigh in on many things, which I do.
I do take huge offense to some *** who I've never seen on the 911 forum, comes onto here from "nowhere" and calls me ignorant. WTF?
I've certainly had some interesting online dialogs before, but I've never shot first at someone by calling them names out of the blue to start the dialog. There is NOBODY here, yourself included, that hasn't made an off the cuff remark or sarcastic remark. There are also a LOT of posts that just drag threads on with NO merit whatsoever. I did start with a succinct reply to the original poster's question. Was I perhaps a bit quick/frivolous in the second reply on old 911's vs new cars? Sure, probably, but not enough to be called ignorant. If we're going to start critiqueing responses here based on percentage of focus to a thread and accuracy-who wants to sign up for scrutiny first?
Do you?
In spite of my ignorance, I've managed to do an awful lot to my car in 9 years, and have had a lot of mechanical toys in the decades I've been driving and playing, so I think I can weigh in on many things, which I do.
I do take huge offense to some *** who I've never seen on the 911 forum, comes onto here from "nowhere" and calls me ignorant. WTF?
I've certainly had some interesting online dialogs before, but I've never shot first at someone by calling them names out of the blue to start the dialog. There is NOBODY here, yourself included, that hasn't made an off the cuff remark or sarcastic remark. There are also a LOT of posts that just drag threads on with NO merit whatsoever. I did start with a succinct reply to the original poster's question. Was I perhaps a bit quick/frivolous in the second reply on old 911's vs new cars? Sure, probably, but not enough to be called ignorant. If we're going to start critiqueing responses here based on percentage of focus to a thread and accuracy-who wants to sign up for scrutiny first?
Do you? WTF people? I must say that I reread his request for info,..(he, in fact, listed the elements). There were no direct answers provided, as well..
I would add that it would not matter to me (whatsoever) who I was replying to (don't give a sheeit about post count, years here, anything else),..so, say whatever you feel like saying (QC) ,..there are no "saviors" here... [[[Granted : great mechanics who do this day in/day out (THAT's a bit different,..and to be respected).]]]]
Back to point: start here:
His question::: ""Why are short trips so bad for air cooled motors as opposed to water cooled motors?""
Now, provide a "technical answer",..and directly.
And having lived 'round here for a while now, I wouldn't think this request would be too much to ask of Ed ?..
NOW,..for the answers, no?
As to the OP's original,.................................
YOU, sir, will need to buy both !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best to all (no fights),
I would add that it would not matter to me (whatsoever) who I was replying to (don't give a sheeit about post count, years here, anything else),..so, say whatever you feel like saying (QC) ,..there are no "saviors" here... [[[Granted : great mechanics who do this day in/day out (THAT's a bit different,..and to be respected).]]]]
Back to point: start here:
His question::: ""Why are short trips so bad for air cooled motors as opposed to water cooled motors?""
Now, provide a "technical answer",..and directly.
And having lived 'round here for a while now, I wouldn't think this request would be too much to ask of Ed ?..
NOW,..for the answers, no?
As to the OP's original,.................................
YOU, sir, will need to buy both !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best to all (no fights),
05-25-2010, 10:05 PM
#40
uninformed gas bag
(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
Rennlist Member
(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
Rennlist Member
If I lived in LA I wouldn't buy either one as a DD. Traffic is brutal and a stick in stop and go traffic can get really old. But on the plus side an A/C motor will get up to temp pretty quick in it. BTW I lived there until the age of 32.
05-26-2010, 09:36 PM
#41
The point was made that you don't rush into buying a 911. You need a PPI, and you need to buy the best 911 you can afford. I say it all the time, but there are a lot of 911/964s out there. Some will even have upgraded and working AC, if you look at enough of them. Generally if you look at a few, one will be better than the others.
I will also put in a plug for the 951, or 944 Turbo. Fast car, good handling, great ones are affordable, and they have stellar AC, as in freeze you out of the car on low at 100 degrees in the shade.
If you have to have a 911, buy a Miata or some sort of cheap car until you can buy the right car. Get a copy of ''The Used 911 Story'', and read it. Drive as many 911 variants as you can, and develop a baseline of experience as to how they should drive and run. Use the search option, and read as many of these types of threads as you can stand.
Also, consider a Boxster. Seriously . Has all the stuff, and will hustle a track like a good Porsche should.
Going back to the original topic, you will either hate 911s, or you will become incredibly hooked on them as a blood tonic. A lot of your reaction will have to do with what kind of 911 you wind up driving or buying. It is really about selection. Doesn't matter if you get a 911, 964, 951, etc, etc, if you are playing catch up restoration it will bite.
If you get a more complicated car and it has been well kept up, you will be able to keep up on it if you are willing, and it won't eat you alive. If you buy a ''simple car'' and it is needy, you are pooched. Trust me.
Obviously, if you come to us, we will tell you that a pre 964 is the bomb. What do you suppose the 964 guys would say ?
05-26-2010, 11:14 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
No way, no how would I pay top dollar for a car coming from a dealer who's reconditioning it, reselling, and hoping to make a profit. Too many places to cut corners. Sounds like you've to the budget to spend and get a really good car. Find an owner who's got a verifiably good (rather, great) car and is ready to move onto something else.
