What Did You Wish You Knew Before Your First Track Day?
04-22-2010, 11:04 AM
#17
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" Big check on the ego. You'll learn more if you approach the track like it's your first day EVER to drive a car. Start out the morning by saying "I'm here, and I don't know dick about driving fast"
i wish i knew that before i started to drive. me and MR BIG BEND at Lime Rock Park did not get along well the first day.
bought the second 911 since and having a blast.
good luck
i wish i knew that before i started to drive. me and MR BIG BEND at Lime Rock Park did not get along well the first day.
bought the second 911 since and having a blast.
good luck
Last edited by alex973; 05-08-2010 at 04:13 PM.
04-22-2010, 11:30 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
At the risk of repeating what's already been said.....
8. Make an effort to learn where the corner workers are stationed. They are your eyes & ears around the corner where you can't see. Wave to them during the cool down lap, and always let them know how much you appreciate what they do for you.
8. Make an effort to learn where the corner workers are stationed. They are your eyes & ears around the corner where you can't see. Wave to them during the cool down lap, and always let them know how much you appreciate what they do for you.
04-22-2010, 09:17 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
I concur with the 20 years earlier comment. I'm also sorry to hear about ice's crummy snow experience-it could've gone the opposite way with decent weather. Egos, and not trying to prove how fast you are, are great points.
To the question: I learned that crappy run of the mill Yokos are a huge limiting factor, so I'd say make sure you have decent tires, and your car (especially brakes) is in top condition.
To the question: I learned that crappy run of the mill Yokos are a huge limiting factor, so I'd say make sure you have decent tires, and your car (especially brakes) is in top condition.
05-01-2010, 06:03 AM
#20
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Well......It was a great experience as expected! Perfect weather and a very efficiently run event by Trackmasters. A VERY full day at Thunderhill. In all I drove seven 20 to 25 min sessions and rode along for three more. At the end of the day I was fully satisfied and tired. 
The instructor rode along for the first five of seven sessions and was a big asset in pointing out the line, passing rules, flags, corner workers' positions and how to mix with the other cars safely. The first two sessions were a sensory overload of trying to drive the car while listening to the instructor, trying to find the "line" and giving point by's to just about everyone on the track.
The ride alongs, two in track-prepped 911's, really helped me to observe and absorb the racing line while not having to worry about other cars on track or car control.
Things really came together for the last three sessions. I was pleasantly surprised at how liberal the instructor was in allowing me to begin to push the car and myself a little (thanks, Bill!).
The suspension setup worked well and the car felt very neutral at the limit of adhesion with no pushing or oversteer tendencies. For the couple of times that I found the limit of my Eagle F1s I was able to stay on the throttle and steer out of the slide with no drama. The 3.2 was quite happy at redline for most of the day and oil temps stayed near 210 on this admittedly cool 78 degree day. I didn't push the brakes very hard and had no problems with fade or boiling fluid. The only mechanical problem occured before the last session of the day when the starter solenoid just clicked and the engine wouldn't turn over. A bump start got me back on the track. After the drive home the starter worked fine so I'm wondering what happened there; haven't had time to troubleshoot since.
To answer my own question in the original post: I learned some important things. First of all street tires SUCK on the track. By far the tires were the most limiting factor in the car's performance. My car is a bit limited to begin with because it's a 77 with narrow rear flares and only 205's stuffed under the wheel arches mounted on 16x7 fuchs. Everyone there was running R compound tires and now I see why. I also learned how capable the older 911's are with little more than sticky tires and track pads. The two 3.2 Carreras that I rode in had stock torsion bars, rubber bushings and stock motors and were quite fast around the track. Besides R compound tires and good brake pads, racing seats and harnesses are also a big advantage!
So I had a great time, learned a lot but now I'm in a quandry as to where to go from here. The compromise of a street car on the track looms large in my mind as I replay the day's events over and over. My car is far too nice an example to turn into a track car by stripping out the interior, cutting and adding flares, etc. Do I sell it and build a track car?? R compound tires and track pads?? Yes, I can hear some of you now telling me to focus on learning how to drive but even after one track day I can see the limitations of my car's setup. Decisions.............this could get expensive!
The video camera worked well and allowed me to go back and review some of the sessions and even time some of the laps. Most of the laps of the last two sessions with just me in the car were right around 2:25. Much slower than it felt but my goal was not to beat my last time with each successive lap but rather to focus on driving the correct line consistently without overtaxing the car or my abilities. Clearly there are seconds to gain by braking later and higher corner entry speeds but that is for future events.
If I can edit down some of the video I'll post a link. The Go Pro video portion was great but the sound not so much. Thanks to all for the advice. A new dimension has been opened to me with this car but now........which way to go???
The instructor rode along for the first five of seven sessions and was a big asset in pointing out the line, passing rules, flags, corner workers' positions and how to mix with the other cars safely. The first two sessions were a sensory overload of trying to drive the car while listening to the instructor, trying to find the "line" and giving point by's to just about everyone on the track.
The ride alongs, two in track-prepped 911's, really helped me to observe and absorb the racing line while not having to worry about other cars on track or car control.
Things really came together for the last three sessions. I was pleasantly surprised at how liberal the instructor was in allowing me to begin to push the car and myself a little (thanks, Bill!).
The suspension setup worked well and the car felt very neutral at the limit of adhesion with no pushing or oversteer tendencies. For the couple of times that I found the limit of my Eagle F1s I was able to stay on the throttle and steer out of the slide with no drama. The 3.2 was quite happy at redline for most of the day and oil temps stayed near 210 on this admittedly cool 78 degree day. I didn't push the brakes very hard and had no problems with fade or boiling fluid. The only mechanical problem occured before the last session of the day when the starter solenoid just clicked and the engine wouldn't turn over. A bump start got me back on the track. After the drive home the starter worked fine so I'm wondering what happened there; haven't had time to troubleshoot since.
To answer my own question in the original post: I learned some important things. First of all street tires SUCK on the track. By far the tires were the most limiting factor in the car's performance. My car is a bit limited to begin with because it's a 77 with narrow rear flares and only 205's stuffed under the wheel arches mounted on 16x7 fuchs. Everyone there was running R compound tires and now I see why. I also learned how capable the older 911's are with little more than sticky tires and track pads. The two 3.2 Carreras that I rode in had stock torsion bars, rubber bushings and stock motors and were quite fast around the track. Besides R compound tires and good brake pads, racing seats and harnesses are also a big advantage!
So I had a great time, learned a lot but now I'm in a quandry as to where to go from here. The compromise of a street car on the track looms large in my mind as I replay the day's events over and over. My car is far too nice an example to turn into a track car by stripping out the interior, cutting and adding flares, etc. Do I sell it and build a track car?? R compound tires and track pads?? Yes, I can hear some of you now telling me to focus on learning how to drive but even after one track day I can see the limitations of my car's setup. Decisions.............this could get expensive!
The video camera worked well and allowed me to go back and review some of the sessions and even time some of the laps. Most of the laps of the last two sessions with just me in the car were right around 2:25. Much slower than it felt but my goal was not to beat my last time with each successive lap but rather to focus on driving the correct line consistently without overtaxing the car or my abilities. Clearly there are seconds to gain by braking later and higher corner entry speeds but that is for future events.
If I can edit down some of the video I'll post a link. The Go Pro video portion was great but the sound not so much. Thanks to all for the advice. A new dimension has been opened to me with this car but now........which way to go???
05-01-2010, 08:34 AM
#21
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Congratulations - you are now officially HOOKED! Sounds like you had a perfect first day. I've been doing this for four years with essentially the same car as yours and I still use street tires. Almost any newer car is faster in the turns with R compounds and all newer Porsches are more powerful everywhere, so I just focus on having fun and getting the most out of my car. There are enough consumables involved without adding more expensive tires to the mix, IMHO. Whatever you decide to do, have fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTnY5S2tr5E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTnY5S2tr5E
05-01-2010, 10:52 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
Haha, you got the bug! Glad to hear you had fun. Don't put the cart in front of the horse, you're not even close to maxxing your car's potential. I've seem good drivers literally blow the doors off prepped cars while driving bone stock cars. You've got plenty to learn still, and you should stay with good street tires like you have now-they talk to you better than R's. If you do go to R's, that change needs to be with suspension upgrades to maximize them. As you've surmised, the slope goes down from here. How do you think Ruby got to where she is today?
05-01-2010, 11:06 AM
#23
Race Car
Good going TT. Ed is dead-nuts on...stay away from the Rcompounds. You have tons more to gain, focus on chassis set up. As for tires, I don't know much about the F1s. I like a set of "cheap" tires you don't mind eating up. I buy them by the treadwear rating, the lower the better - Kumhos are very popular amongst the Porsche crowd.
One more thing in regards to the original post...when you get those seats and harnesses, close your door first.
One more thing in regards to the original post...when you get those seats and harnesses, close your door first.
05-01-2010, 11:57 PM
#24
Drifting
R comps will slow down your development. They tend to mask a lot of sins. Drive well on streets first. Move your way through the ranks - then go to rcomps - but expect to do suspension, maybe brakes too at the same time. The slope gets pretty slippery from here.
05-02-2010, 03:17 AM
#25
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Thanks again for the observations of those of you who have BTDT. Lots of comments on R compounds requiring suspension mods. I guess I should have recapped the mods I have made to my car prior to its first track exposure.
Up front I've got 21mm hollow torsion bars, Bilstein HD's, plastic A arm bushings, stock swaybar, new balljoints, turbo tie rods, rack spacers, Tarett strut brace, 1 deg. neg camber, zero toe and full back on the caster.
In the back it's 28mm T bars, Elephant Poly Bronze spring plate bushings, monoballs, Wevo swaybar mounts with a Tarett hollow adjustable swaybar, custom valved Bilsteins, 1.6 deg. neg camber and a mm or so toe in per side.
The ride height is slightly below "Euro".
Both of the other track prepped Carreras I rode in on the same track on the same day had mostly stock suspension i.e. torsion bars, bushings and shocks but with much wider R compound rubber. Both cars were capable of far greater lateral G's and felt much more stable and planted in the corners than my car.
I think I may have gone a little overboard with the suspension mods given that I am limited to running 205/50 tires under my skinny rear flares. This doesn't mean I cant add flares later. I just thought R's might add enough grip to let the suspension mods shine a little better.
So I'm gathering that the R's grip better and longer but let go more abruptly when reaching their limit which could put an inexperienced track driver in the weeds.
I do hear what you are all saying about developing my skills on street tires and I agree somewhat with that logic. As I said in an earlier post, my intent on my first day was not to set faster and faster lap times but to learn the track and the car. Even so, I was able to get the car to the limit of its traction pretty consistently. Turn 2 at Thunderhill is a 180 deg. "circle track" type of corner where you set up and hold the car at its max G for more than a few seconds. In this situation my car was clearly fighting for traction.
One thing that has me a little puzzled is that the car felt so neutral with the same size tires on all four corners. If the rears are too small why was the car not trying to swap ends all day? Maybe it will show this tendency when I start braking more aggressively on corner entries? Only in the off camber corners did the *** end feel a little nervous.
Could a better, more experienced driver take my car around the track faster? Absolutely and without question. Could I take seconds off my lap times without changing anything on the car? Absolutely with later braking, higher corner entry speeds, gas on earlier, different line, etc, etc.
I am one part of the equation and I will learn and become faster. The car is the other part and it proved to be more limited with its current setup than I thought it would be at this point. I believe the skinny rear tires are the weak link in an otherwise great system. Brakes will be another topic as I haven't been able to explore their limits yet.
Don't get me wrong, I really had a blast and I do fully understand that I have tons to learn here. I think I'm as hooked on the nuts and bolts of this car as the driving of it. Making the car faster holds as much interest to me as learning how to drive the car faster.
Great points, all.........keep them coming!
Up front I've got 21mm hollow torsion bars, Bilstein HD's, plastic A arm bushings, stock swaybar, new balljoints, turbo tie rods, rack spacers, Tarett strut brace, 1 deg. neg camber, zero toe and full back on the caster.
In the back it's 28mm T bars, Elephant Poly Bronze spring plate bushings, monoballs, Wevo swaybar mounts with a Tarett hollow adjustable swaybar, custom valved Bilsteins, 1.6 deg. neg camber and a mm or so toe in per side.
The ride height is slightly below "Euro".
Both of the other track prepped Carreras I rode in on the same track on the same day had mostly stock suspension i.e. torsion bars, bushings and shocks but with much wider R compound rubber. Both cars were capable of far greater lateral G's and felt much more stable and planted in the corners than my car.
I think I may have gone a little overboard with the suspension mods given that I am limited to running 205/50 tires under my skinny rear flares. This doesn't mean I cant add flares later. I just thought R's might add enough grip to let the suspension mods shine a little better.
So I'm gathering that the R's grip better and longer but let go more abruptly when reaching their limit which could put an inexperienced track driver in the weeds.
I do hear what you are all saying about developing my skills on street tires and I agree somewhat with that logic. As I said in an earlier post, my intent on my first day was not to set faster and faster lap times but to learn the track and the car. Even so, I was able to get the car to the limit of its traction pretty consistently. Turn 2 at Thunderhill is a 180 deg. "circle track" type of corner where you set up and hold the car at its max G for more than a few seconds. In this situation my car was clearly fighting for traction.
One thing that has me a little puzzled is that the car felt so neutral with the same size tires on all four corners. If the rears are too small why was the car not trying to swap ends all day? Maybe it will show this tendency when I start braking more aggressively on corner entries? Only in the off camber corners did the *** end feel a little nervous.
Could a better, more experienced driver take my car around the track faster? Absolutely and without question. Could I take seconds off my lap times without changing anything on the car? Absolutely with later braking, higher corner entry speeds, gas on earlier, different line, etc, etc.
I am one part of the equation and I will learn and become faster. The car is the other part and it proved to be more limited with its current setup than I thought it would be at this point. I believe the skinny rear tires are the weak link in an otherwise great system. Brakes will be another topic as I haven't been able to explore their limits yet.
Don't get me wrong, I really had a blast and I do fully understand that I have tons to learn here. I think I'm as hooked on the nuts and bolts of this car as the driving of it. Making the car faster holds as much interest to me as learning how to drive the car faster.
Great points, all.........keep them coming!
05-03-2010, 12:36 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Glad to hear you enjoyed. Just for perspective, and not to put you way ahead of where you are as a beginner, I think Hank Watts still has the track record for a stockish early car there in the 2:08-9 range on the full track. I never officially posted a time as wasn't running time trials by that time, but I was right there also with my '73 S about 10 years ago that was lightly prepped. Track is at least 2 seconds faster now. So you can do it with a ~2500lb car with 225/50's all around. I never ran Hoosiers on that car, either. And I think the engine had 100lbs compression in one of the cylinders.
So..........you can stuff the tires under there, and you don't need big spoilers.
2's a turn you just have to dance with. Setup is paramount. One time I got passed by Craig Watkins (chief engineer w/ Flying Lizards, owner of Smart Racing) going in there, and his car was just so........perfect. Just dove in the inside and stayed stuck there. (Which is no big deal in a formula car, but was eye opening for a production car.) Turns out he wasn't even running a rear stabilizer bar. Back when he was experimenting with the prototypes of the Fox shocks he's now selling.
So..........you can stuff the tires under there, and you don't need big spoilers.
2's a turn you just have to dance with. Setup is paramount. One time I got passed by Craig Watkins (chief engineer w/ Flying Lizards, owner of Smart Racing) going in there, and his car was just so........perfect. Just dove in the inside and stayed stuck there. (Which is no big deal in a formula car, but was eye opening for a production car.) Turns out he wasn't even running a rear stabilizer bar. Back when he was experimenting with the prototypes of the Fox shocks he's now selling.
05-04-2010, 11:52 AM
#27
Drifting
One of the things that you learn as you progress is to drive the slip angles. Having your street tires complain to you audibly helps you to drive at the limits and gives you another tool (audible as well as feel). Look at some of the videos of HSR in cockpit. The drivers there = especially with the early cars "drive the float" usually around corners the camera is pointed in a different direction (9-11 degree slip angle) than where the car is headed.
Sounds like you have the car set up well.
Sounds like you have the car set up well.
05-04-2010, 10:19 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Bias plys on those? I can absolutely guarantee that though the Radical and 910 are the "same" they are wholly different in driving style mostly because of the radial v. bias tires. And man do those old Avons hold (not to mention predictable) when you're in near dirt track mode.
05-05-2010, 02:53 AM
#29
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One of the things that you learn as you progress is to drive the slip angles. Having your street tires complain to you audibly helps you to drive at the limits and gives you another tool (audible as well as feel). Look at some of the videos of HSR in cockpit. The drivers there = especially with the early cars "drive the float" usually around corners the camera is pointed in a different direction (9-11 degree slip angle) than where the car is headed.
Sounds like you have the car set up well.
Sounds like you have the car set up well.
Link or more info plz!
05-06-2010, 08:13 AM
#30
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TT, the tweaks you've mentioned (i.e. R compound tires and others) are all good things to do to your car at some point in time. i might suggest you enjoy what you have and learn how to develop your skills to match your cars current capabilities. A number of members have made great suggestions already. Get as much seat time as possible with performance street tires as you can... you"ll bee a better driver in the long run. Chuck