I got beat up on by a Mustang guy and couldn't defend myself
05-22-2003, 03:40 AM
#76
Carlos, you are misinformed as far as the Corvettes. If you don't think they are the factory team with the GM goodwrench graphics and no other sponsors on them, you are mistaken. But maybe you think that Reinhold Joest's Audis aren't run by Volkswagen AG either. I suggest you look at motorsport history and see how much factory sponsorship helps you win endurance events. Look how the Champion Audi R8's did in comparison to the factory ones. Look at the Martini and Rothmans Porsches. Not only that, those 7 liter Corvettes have almost nothing in common with their street counterparts. Next time you go to Le Mans or Daytona, look for vin numbers on them. Then do the same with either an RSR or GT3. You will not only find VIN numbers on those, but you will find a stock Porsche tub with a Matter roll cage welded in. You could build a street 911 in one weekend to look like that. That could not be done to Corvettes to look like their Daytona winning counterparts. Race Porsches, are built on chassis that are taken off the assembly line. This is not the case with any other endurace race cars with the exception of the Tom Milner M3's.
For those of you that think looking at Porsche racing engines is irrelevant, think otherwise. If anyone here has spent time looking at the engines in either the 964RSR, 993RSR, 993GT2, and GT3RS, you will find that the vast majority of parts are exactly the same as used in the street. Including the G50 transmission. Even the 935's ran on 930 boxes. The only difference being the ratios, welded diff and a pump cycling oil into a cooler. It is extremely easy to convert any flat six into the same engines that ran Daytona. Many have done so. The vast majority of the parts are the same. And that is why you cannot discount Porsches race engines as different breeds, because they are not. The transmissions aren't Hewlands. The pistons and cylinders are off the shelf items you can order from Andial right now. Same with the heads. I know because I spent plenty of time looking at them. I encourage anybody here to walk into Andial, Jerry Woods or Motorsport Design one day and see how most of the same parts that are in your street motors, go into those race motors. After years of going to endurance races, I have never seen any other brand of car even come close to Porsche's use of street parts for racing. So there lies the relevance of Porsche's racing motors for rating the durability of street motors. Even though this is trivial, full race Porsches even use the factory igntion keys. Even the 962 had a 911 ignition and key. This is more of a philosohycal than practical move by Porsche to showcase the fact that they make a effort to use as many factory parts as possible in their race cars. And Porsche isn't in the business of BS'ing the public.
Factory entries are not the most accurate gauge of how good a certain car is unless it is being compared to another factory entry. Porsche hasn't had a factory entry since the GT1 program. Not to mention cars that share almost no parts with the street cars. A better comparison to the endurance racing Porsches would be the Lotus Esprits, Venturis, and maybe the Lister Storms. Those were all very close to their street cars. But not the factory one-off Corvettes. Money being the golden rule to automakers, the best gauge that a car isn't a one-off is their being sold in large numbers to privateers. I haven't seen endurance racing Corvettes being sold turnkey yet. That is because, again, they are one-off specials. Or ask yourself, who is the team owner of the Corvette team?
What would impress me, is a Corvette that is built on a stock tub, racing and winning an endurance event with no factory sponsorship. Much like Georg Loos, the Kremer brothers, the Whittington brothers, Walter Brun, Siggi Brunn, the John Pauls, Larbre Competition, Almeras freres, Roock, Rohr, Bob Garretson, Dick Barbour and Kevin Buckler did with with their 911's. All this with no Factory sponsorship. The only service that Porsche offers with all the privateers is the presence of the Andial parts truck and the guidance of Alwin Springer for technical quetions. Trust me, parts are not given out. They actually carry a heavy premium. I know because I have been there watching team owners get reamed for some broken part that they need that second. The Corvettes weren't even factory sponsorship by comparison. They were factory run. Now imagine how much better all the teams I described would have done had they had the Martini or Rothmans graphics on the car along with the factory money. Or better yet, the vast sums of money that were poured on the racing Corvette program or the racing Cadillac fiasco. I still laugh at that one. But in the end, all those teams did fine with their own money and much smaller sponsorship.
As far as personal experience with Porsches on the track, I could use my own car as a gauge. I have been abusing mine on the track since 1995. I see the track at least 10 times a year. I have 215,000 miles on the motor. It hasn't been opened yet. The clutch was replaced in 1995. And as anyone who knows me personally can attest, I don't baby this car. After the last eight years on the track, I haven't met a single person, with anything other than a 911, that has had an engine last as long running at the same tracks I do. I see engines blowing every weekend. Most of them pushrod V8's. I know someone who in one year lost two Corvette C5 motors along with a Z06 motor. Since then he decided using his M3 would be more prudent. He says that even though the Z06 is quick, it isn't made to take the abuse the M3 can take. And he still thinks that the flat six is the most durable. Usually a rod or some rings go in the V8's. But I still haven't seen a flat six leg go at the track. I have seen them had their valves bent to hell from missed shifts, but never from wear. A lot of this is common sense. First, there are only three piston motor designs that are inherently balanced. That is the V12, inline 6 and the flat six. The flat six due to its flat opposed design in which the forces counter each other. Then one must take into account the dry sump which virtually garantees good oil pressure no matter what the g forces are. Not to mention the large quantities of oil inherent with a dry sump. An oil pan design, by comparison, will always have those moments of low pressure which build up incrementally and unnoticed over the years to one day let go. The flat six is also a simple design which by its air cooled nature has a lot less parts to go wrong. This is why the flat 6 and flat 4 are the only types of piston motors used in general aviation today since radials are no longer commonplace. Can one imagine crossing over the rocky mountains in a Mooney to all of the sudden spring a coolant leak. I personally like the idea of having the only piston engine design that is suitable for life or death situations in my car. Porsche motors are even used in blimps. I know for a fact that the Fuji blimp along with others uses them. With CIS also for added reliability. I still haven't seen a pushrod V8 being used for general aviation. Maybe somebody out there is using one. But I haven't seen one yet and it is definetely not the norm. Neither is it the norm to go endurance racing with anything other than a flat six for the production classes.
For those of you that think looking at Porsche racing engines is irrelevant, think otherwise. If anyone here has spent time looking at the engines in either the 964RSR, 993RSR, 993GT2, and GT3RS, you will find that the vast majority of parts are exactly the same as used in the street. Including the G50 transmission. Even the 935's ran on 930 boxes. The only difference being the ratios, welded diff and a pump cycling oil into a cooler. It is extremely easy to convert any flat six into the same engines that ran Daytona. Many have done so. The vast majority of the parts are the same. And that is why you cannot discount Porsches race engines as different breeds, because they are not. The transmissions aren't Hewlands. The pistons and cylinders are off the shelf items you can order from Andial right now. Same with the heads. I know because I spent plenty of time looking at them. I encourage anybody here to walk into Andial, Jerry Woods or Motorsport Design one day and see how most of the same parts that are in your street motors, go into those race motors. After years of going to endurance races, I have never seen any other brand of car even come close to Porsche's use of street parts for racing. So there lies the relevance of Porsche's racing motors for rating the durability of street motors. Even though this is trivial, full race Porsches even use the factory igntion keys. Even the 962 had a 911 ignition and key. This is more of a philosohycal than practical move by Porsche to showcase the fact that they make a effort to use as many factory parts as possible in their race cars. And Porsche isn't in the business of BS'ing the public.
Factory entries are not the most accurate gauge of how good a certain car is unless it is being compared to another factory entry. Porsche hasn't had a factory entry since the GT1 program. Not to mention cars that share almost no parts with the street cars. A better comparison to the endurance racing Porsches would be the Lotus Esprits, Venturis, and maybe the Lister Storms. Those were all very close to their street cars. But not the factory one-off Corvettes. Money being the golden rule to automakers, the best gauge that a car isn't a one-off is their being sold in large numbers to privateers. I haven't seen endurance racing Corvettes being sold turnkey yet. That is because, again, they are one-off specials. Or ask yourself, who is the team owner of the Corvette team?
What would impress me, is a Corvette that is built on a stock tub, racing and winning an endurance event with no factory sponsorship. Much like Georg Loos, the Kremer brothers, the Whittington brothers, Walter Brun, Siggi Brunn, the John Pauls, Larbre Competition, Almeras freres, Roock, Rohr, Bob Garretson, Dick Barbour and Kevin Buckler did with with their 911's. All this with no Factory sponsorship. The only service that Porsche offers with all the privateers is the presence of the Andial parts truck and the guidance of Alwin Springer for technical quetions. Trust me, parts are not given out. They actually carry a heavy premium. I know because I have been there watching team owners get reamed for some broken part that they need that second. The Corvettes weren't even factory sponsorship by comparison. They were factory run. Now imagine how much better all the teams I described would have done had they had the Martini or Rothmans graphics on the car along with the factory money. Or better yet, the vast sums of money that were poured on the racing Corvette program or the racing Cadillac fiasco. I still laugh at that one. But in the end, all those teams did fine with their own money and much smaller sponsorship.
As far as personal experience with Porsches on the track, I could use my own car as a gauge. I have been abusing mine on the track since 1995. I see the track at least 10 times a year. I have 215,000 miles on the motor. It hasn't been opened yet. The clutch was replaced in 1995. And as anyone who knows me personally can attest, I don't baby this car. After the last eight years on the track, I haven't met a single person, with anything other than a 911, that has had an engine last as long running at the same tracks I do. I see engines blowing every weekend. Most of them pushrod V8's. I know someone who in one year lost two Corvette C5 motors along with a Z06 motor. Since then he decided using his M3 would be more prudent. He says that even though the Z06 is quick, it isn't made to take the abuse the M3 can take. And he still thinks that the flat six is the most durable. Usually a rod or some rings go in the V8's. But I still haven't seen a flat six leg go at the track. I have seen them had their valves bent to hell from missed shifts, but never from wear. A lot of this is common sense. First, there are only three piston motor designs that are inherently balanced. That is the V12, inline 6 and the flat six. The flat six due to its flat opposed design in which the forces counter each other. Then one must take into account the dry sump which virtually garantees good oil pressure no matter what the g forces are. Not to mention the large quantities of oil inherent with a dry sump. An oil pan design, by comparison, will always have those moments of low pressure which build up incrementally and unnoticed over the years to one day let go. The flat six is also a simple design which by its air cooled nature has a lot less parts to go wrong. This is why the flat 6 and flat 4 are the only types of piston motors used in general aviation today since radials are no longer commonplace. Can one imagine crossing over the rocky mountains in a Mooney to all of the sudden spring a coolant leak. I personally like the idea of having the only piston engine design that is suitable for life or death situations in my car. Porsche motors are even used in blimps. I know for a fact that the Fuji blimp along with others uses them. With CIS also for added reliability. I still haven't seen a pushrod V8 being used for general aviation. Maybe somebody out there is using one. But I haven't seen one yet and it is definetely not the norm. Neither is it the norm to go endurance racing with anything other than a flat six for the production classes.
05-22-2003, 09:52 AM
#77
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Ed:
I learn so much with every one of your posts... Thanks! Your planting seeds for further reading and learning. I especially love your knowledge of Porsche and BMW history (I'm partial
)... Thanks and keep it commin.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
I learn so much with every one of your posts... Thanks! Your planting seeds for further reading and learning. I especially love your knowledge of Porsche and BMW history (I'm partial
)... Thanks and keep it commin.<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
05-22-2003, 10:58 AM
#78
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Well now Ed, I'll start where you ended. Call Contintal & tell them you want to order one of their overhead cam aircraft engines. This comparison is ridiculous. Airplanes are air cooled because the engine sits right behind a propeller duhh. This is simple. If Porsches ore so all fired powerful & bulletproof why the hell are so many of their victories in classes where all they race against are other Porsches? I'm happy for you that you've gotten such good service from your flat six. This board is filled with people who didn't.
I guess my question is, "If Porsche are so freakin' bad, why are so many race against other Porsche." Step the F**K up and rece against other makes. But sadly, we all know the answer to that. Porsche USED TO BE the 500 lb gorilla on the track. 917, 934, 935, 962 all kicked *** & took names but none of those cars bore anything more than a passing resemblence to production cars. Now Porsche's racing program is reduced to racing othe Porsches. Winning is like kissing your sister!
At the quick lube place where I get my work car's oil changed there is a guy with a GM 4.3 6. It has over 400,000 miles & hasn't been opened. Does this make the 4.3 a wonder engine? Not in my estimation. I dont have intimate knowledge of the C5 racing program but I would be surprised if the heads & block don't come right off the GM shelf. For those who have asked, George's do. They are standard old GM issue fast burn aluminum heads & 4 bolt main block. THe Ford was recently changed from the Ford Nascar block to an aluminum unit. The heads are right of the Ford shelf.
Maybe you think that everybody who has non-Porsche cars baby the hell out of them to avoid problems. You couldnt be more wrong. In fact I think the reverse is true. That is why you see so many of these mega hp 911's that only get run hard on the dyno. It costs so freakin' much to make power that all these guys are scared to break 'em. So they sit & compare receipts & dyno sheets while they trash those who do as neanderthals and unsafe. While guys talk about going 140 in a 40 and get 2 pages of kudos. This is why so many guys on this board HATE George's attitude of "let's line 'em up & see."
I guess my question is, "If Porsche are so freakin' bad, why are so many race against other Porsche." Step the F**K up and rece against other makes. But sadly, we all know the answer to that. Porsche USED TO BE the 500 lb gorilla on the track. 917, 934, 935, 962 all kicked *** & took names but none of those cars bore anything more than a passing resemblence to production cars. Now Porsche's racing program is reduced to racing othe Porsches. Winning is like kissing your sister!
At the quick lube place where I get my work car's oil changed there is a guy with a GM 4.3 6. It has over 400,000 miles & hasn't been opened. Does this make the 4.3 a wonder engine? Not in my estimation. I dont have intimate knowledge of the C5 racing program but I would be surprised if the heads & block don't come right off the GM shelf. For those who have asked, George's do. They are standard old GM issue fast burn aluminum heads & 4 bolt main block. THe Ford was recently changed from the Ford Nascar block to an aluminum unit. The heads are right of the Ford shelf.
Maybe you think that everybody who has non-Porsche cars baby the hell out of them to avoid problems. You couldnt be more wrong. In fact I think the reverse is true. That is why you see so many of these mega hp 911's that only get run hard on the dyno. It costs so freakin' much to make power that all these guys are scared to break 'em. So they sit & compare receipts & dyno sheets while they trash those who do as neanderthals and unsafe. While guys talk about going 140 in a 40 and get 2 pages of kudos. This is why so many guys on this board HATE George's attitude of "let's line 'em up & see."
05-22-2003, 11:26 AM
#79
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> This is why so many guys on this board HATE George's attitude of "let's line 'em up & see."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Quite to the contrary. That's what I'm talking about! Let's stop BS'ing here. Who cares about all these numbers and road tests and racecar crap? Screw this theoretical BS and just drive!
Anyway, you've got about as much chance of achieving peace in the Middle East as you do of converting a Corvette guy to a 911 lover, and vice-versa. In the end, who cares? Both cars have their virtues, so whatever you prefer. Enjoy the car you have, and fantasize about whatver car you want.
Carlos: Bottom line, this is a Porsche 911 board full of 911 owners, so you have to expect a little bias...and you can't expect everybody to appreciate other makes.
I think we all made our points here, so can we end this thread now? <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
-Sean
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Quite to the contrary. That's what I'm talking about! Let's stop BS'ing here. Who cares about all these numbers and road tests and racecar crap? Screw this theoretical BS and just drive!
Anyway, you've got about as much chance of achieving peace in the Middle East as you do of converting a Corvette guy to a 911 lover, and vice-versa. In the end, who cares? Both cars have their virtues, so whatever you prefer. Enjoy the car you have, and fantasize about whatver car you want.
Carlos: Bottom line, this is a Porsche 911 board full of 911 owners, so you have to expect a little bias...and you can't expect everybody to appreciate other makes.
I think we all made our points here, so can we end this thread now? <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
-Sean
05-22-2003, 11:27 AM
#80
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Carlos:
<strong>... everybody who has non-Porsche cars baby the hell out of them to avoid problems. You couldnt be more wrong. In fact I think the reverse is true...
This is why so many guys on this board HATE George's attitude of "let's line 'em up & see."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Your right about the first point Carlos. I drive my BMW's hard. Other than regular maintenance I have had great experiences... In fact, one of my older babies is now owned by a co-worker and still going strong. It is an '84 323I Euro with over 250,000 miles. Exaust, intake, plugs, belts, etc. are all that have been done to that puppy. The current owner uses it and his VW to autocross... Amazing reliability.
On your second point: I think George's point of "Line 'em up and see" is accepted by most on this board. Apples to apples would be the only criteria. The issue with most of the guys seems to be one of proving George's claims. Surely George has had his 911 dyno'd. All they are asking is to have him scan the results to his PC and post them here. Some want proof, other's are genuinely interested.
Reliability is an issue important to us all. Ford and Chevy have had their problems, as have every other auto manufacturer in history including Porsche. The motor is only one component of an auto, albeit the heart. It's hard to deny that Ford and Chevy products, while having their place, have never matched the "overall package" that many of their German counterparts have (I drool over the new M5). This argument of what is better is ridiculous. IMHO, those that purchase a Vette are looking for different things than those looking for a 911. I know this to be true, at least in my case. I don't think anyone denies this. It's just that when you and George make claims of the SM's incredible performance and reliability, the rest of us would like to see proof. The issues and performance of the 911 are well documented. The SM is new to many of us. Show us what it can do!
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
<strong>... everybody who has non-Porsche cars baby the hell out of them to avoid problems. You couldnt be more wrong. In fact I think the reverse is true...
This is why so many guys on this board HATE George's attitude of "let's line 'em up & see."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Your right about the first point Carlos. I drive my BMW's hard. Other than regular maintenance I have had great experiences... In fact, one of my older babies is now owned by a co-worker and still going strong. It is an '84 323I Euro with over 250,000 miles. Exaust, intake, plugs, belts, etc. are all that have been done to that puppy. The current owner uses it and his VW to autocross... Amazing reliability.
On your second point: I think George's point of "Line 'em up and see" is accepted by most on this board. Apples to apples would be the only criteria. The issue with most of the guys seems to be one of proving George's claims. Surely George has had his 911 dyno'd. All they are asking is to have him scan the results to his PC and post them here. Some want proof, other's are genuinely interested.
Reliability is an issue important to us all. Ford and Chevy have had their problems, as have every other auto manufacturer in history including Porsche. The motor is only one component of an auto, albeit the heart. It's hard to deny that Ford and Chevy products, while having their place, have never matched the "overall package" that many of their German counterparts have (I drool over the new M5). This argument of what is better is ridiculous. IMHO, those that purchase a Vette are looking for different things than those looking for a 911. I know this to be true, at least in my case. I don't think anyone denies this. It's just that when you and George make claims of the SM's incredible performance and reliability, the rest of us would like to see proof. The issues and performance of the 911 are well documented. The SM is new to many of us. Show us what it can do!
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
05-22-2003, 06:49 PM
#81
Instructor
Ed: For those of you that think looking at Porsche racing engines is irrelevant
That was me. Looks like I underestimated Porsche racing engine's similarity to regular engines .
Carlos: For those who have asked, George's do. They are standard old GM issue fast burn aluminum heads & 4 bolt main block.
I apologise then - I figured it would be aftermarket blocks and heads cast similar to, but improving on, the Chevy std.
Still don't believe the 630hp though - I reckon a fudged dyno factor.
This is why. I searched around:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
John McKindley
City: R.S.M. 92688
Combo: Small Block
Engine: 383
Transmission: TH400
Comments:
How's 591 HP@6400 rpm and 522 TQ@5000 rpm on Pump gas through mufflers sound? Dyno tested!
383 Chevy Small block
-KB128 Flat top pistons. 11:7/1cr with the AFR heads.
-Scat steel crank
-BHJ balancer (Real light)
-MSD digital 6
-6.0" Scat rods
-195 AFR alumnium heads ported and flow beached to 281 CFM at .700 lift. Angle milled to 57cc chamber. -1 3/4" comp headers 3" collectors. 3" Magnaflow mufflers.
-Solid Isky roller cam .650 lift, 260 dur @ .050
-Victor Jr. match ported W/ 2" open hole spacer.
-850+ Holly carb. flow beanched to 1007 CFM.
Believe it or not this combo worked on 91 octane 76 fuel.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">So some guy has almost 600hp from a 383, with 11:7 c/r and a pretty wild cam. George has MORE than this??? 11.7:1 - far out...
That was me. Looks like I underestimated Porsche racing engine's similarity to regular engines
.Carlos: For those who have asked, George's do. They are standard old GM issue fast burn aluminum heads & 4 bolt main block.
I apologise then - I figured it would be aftermarket blocks and heads cast similar to, but improving on, the Chevy std.
Still don't believe the 630hp though - I reckon a fudged dyno factor.
This is why. I searched around:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
John McKindley
City: R.S.M. 92688
Combo: Small Block
Engine: 383
Transmission: TH400
Comments:
How's 591 HP@6400 rpm and 522 TQ@5000 rpm on Pump gas through mufflers sound? Dyno tested!
383 Chevy Small block
-KB128 Flat top pistons. 11:7/1cr with the AFR heads.
-Scat steel crank
-BHJ balancer (Real light)
-MSD digital 6
-6.0" Scat rods
-195 AFR alumnium heads ported and flow beached to 281 CFM at .700 lift. Angle milled to 57cc chamber. -1 3/4" comp headers 3" collectors. 3" Magnaflow mufflers.
-Solid Isky roller cam .650 lift, 260 dur @ .050
-Victor Jr. match ported W/ 2" open hole spacer.
-850+ Holly carb. flow beanched to 1007 CFM.
Believe it or not this combo worked on 91 octane 76 fuel.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">So some guy has almost 600hp from a 383, with 11:7 c/r and a pretty wild cam. George has MORE than this??? 11.7:1 - far out...
05-22-2003, 08:09 PM
#82
CamB - I don't even think he has a fudged dyno result - or any. I mean, why would you go posting about a 630 hp. GM small block on a Porsche forum and then not back it up. If it was me, I would have posted the dyno sheet immediately - especially on here - would have been waiting to post it.
I think he tells people it is 630, and most guys will believe him. It probably has 450, and even then, it will be Japanese horsepower (300 RPM powerband) That's just another 8000 horsepower Toyota or small block that wouldn't even be able to read my license plate.
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
I think he tells people it is 630, and most guys will believe him. It probably has 450, and even then, it will be Japanese horsepower (300 RPM powerband) That's just another 8000 horsepower Toyota or small block that wouldn't even be able to read my license plate.
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
05-23-2003, 12:19 AM
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I'm sorry, Ed says it all!! For Christ sake, this is a Porsche roundtable. How many times have we hear it before, p-car v vette. Of course the Porsche will do it every time. If it isn't the vett, it's the WRX. Bring em on!!!
85' Carrera Coupe 3.2 Sounds nice, doesn't it?
85' Carrera Coupe 3.2 Sounds nice, doesn't it?
05-23-2003, 12:59 AM
#84
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by special tool:
<strong>CamB - I don't even think he has a fudged dyno result - or any. I mean, why would you go posting about a 630 hp. GM small block on a Porsche forum and then not back it up. If it was me, I would have posted the dyno sheet immediately - especially on here - would have been waiting to post it.
I think he tells people it is 630, and most guys will believe him. It probably has 450, and even then, it will be Japanese horsepower (300 RPM powerband)
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I know why. George and his parrot are just having fun tugging our collective wing ***** (mostly the parrot though) He'll never post anything useful about that car since his claims are all fabricated. It's all just a joke. This isn't the first time anyone has called bull**** on his claims. This isn't the first time he's not replied. Kind of like making prank calls as a kid...
gotta admit, it's pretty humourous.
rjp
<strong>CamB - I don't even think he has a fudged dyno result - or any. I mean, why would you go posting about a 630 hp. GM small block on a Porsche forum and then not back it up. If it was me, I would have posted the dyno sheet immediately - especially on here - would have been waiting to post it.
I think he tells people it is 630, and most guys will believe him. It probably has 450, and even then, it will be Japanese horsepower (300 RPM powerband)
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I know why. George and his parrot are just having fun tugging our collective wing ***** (mostly the parrot though) He'll never post anything useful about that car since his claims are all fabricated. It's all just a joke. This isn't the first time anyone has called bull**** on his claims. This isn't the first time he's not replied. Kind of like making prank calls as a kid...
gotta admit, it's pretty humourous.
rjp
05-23-2003, 01:17 AM
#85
There are few similarities between the 962 and 917 when compared to the 911. That is true. But that is not the case with the 934, 935 and every RSR. Those are all pretty close. The 917 did not use any part from any other Porsche with the exception of the gauges and other interior bits. The engine almost had no parts from any other Porsches. Race Porsches included. The chassis on the 917 had the 908 langheck as a design basis, but that is where the similarity ends. On the other hand, parts from that car went to other cars as in the flat fan drive going to the 934 and 935 and the brakes to the 3.3 liter 930 turbo. The 962 had it's own aluminum monocoque, suspension parts including uprights, rear suspension and even the brakes that it didn't share with any other Porsche. The engine though, is a different story. This is a little more complex. The first 956's had basically a 935/78 Moby Dick motor with a couple of updates. It was at first mechanically injected with basically the same injection pump as the early mechanically injected 911's had. The flat 917 based fan was no longer there and a 911sc vertical fan was in its place. It had water jackets put around the heads. Then the 962 came out due to IMSA's John Bishop trying to avoid a Porsche domination of the series at the introduction of the 956 in the United States. So IMSA didn't allow cars where the driver's feet were ahead of the brakes and also required them to run fully air cooled instead of air/water cooled. No problem Norbert Singer said. He designed a 956 with an elongated mid section, placed a sometimes single turbo, sometimes twin turbo, fully air cooled 935 motor in that chassis. The engines were virtually the same as the 935 motors, with no modifications. Some people ran twin turbo, others ran single. Same thing as the 935's. Owner's discretion. The only other modification being the big airscoop over the engine cover. A classic example of an early 962 with 935 power is Al Holbert's Lowenbrau Porsche. You will notice the air scoop in that car. Porsche sold a bunch of those since the car was turnkey ready to go. All they needed after giving Jurgen Barth a call and signing the check was a full tank of gas and chassis setup. No other manufacturer offered that kind of deal. You could find a March chassis, but then you still needed to adapt it to an engine. Of course, you could find someone else who had some chevy or something else in the back of a March and copy some parts. But those cars were having a very hard time keeping up with the few 962's at the time. It wasn't long before those few 962's became a lot of 962's. Their buyers in the form of Walter Brun, Manfred and Erwin Kremer, Siggi Brunn, Reinhold Joest, Gianpiero Moretti of MOMO, figured, they would do the same as they did with the 935's. Why buy some undeveloped chassis without an engine instead of buying something that already runs at delivery and just customize it to beat the other guys that didn't come up with better solutions than yourself. So everybody bought a 962 and tried to outdo the other car by any means possible. This had been going on with the 935's for years because roughly one third of those were turnkey cars also. People bought or built 935's and found ways to find a little extra speed instead of deciding on some other car that had no more than one unit to base your research and development on. BMW was smart though and built up some turnkey turbo 3 series and M1's. They, like Porsche, weren't only interested in just winning a race or two and pulling out. They, like Porsche, wanted to race on Sunday, sell on Monday, and if lucky, sell a turnkey race car at the end of the month. The 962's eventually started using 6 individual 4 valve water cooled heads along with the air cooled pistons towards the late eighties. They also introduced the Carrera 3.2's Motronic to that car along with an early version of tiptronic and used the 962 to test it. Actually, the factory 956 and 962 were becoming more like test beds than race cars at the end of their carrers. The drivers were a little annoyed at first since the early teething pains of these new systems allowed some of the privateers like Joest to beat the factory at many occasions. Beating the factory at their own game was the highest goal of most of the 935 and 962 private race teams. In the end, the only street parts used in the 962's other than the gauges, ignition switch, steering column, etc, was the guts of the motor that used the crankcase of the Carrera 3.2 with smaller pistons. The oiling systems had some slick additions to increase cooling. All pretty simple but highly effective modifications that only trial and error can help develop. The beauty is that if one wants to, he or she can easily adapt a lot of those modifications to any 911. Or better yet, just throw in a detuned 962 motor in a 911. Andial did that years ago for a client. It was pretty simple since the 962 motors had the same crankases as 911's. As a sidenote, those neat 4 valve heads in the 962 were eventually consolidated into one head for each bank and were used in the 959, then later the GT1, GT3, 996turbo and GT2. Porsche milks every part for everything it can offer. That is why it more often than not uses street parts in the race car or vice versa.
As far as the 934 and 935, things become much closer to the 911. For starters, only about a third of the 935's were actual turnkey cars. Another third were 934's that eventually became what was nicknamed 934 and a half's, and later full bore 935's. This happened as some guys would remove the CIS injection and replace it with mechanical injection, then even put in the bigger brakes, wheels, flares, etc. The last third would start out as street 911 turbos which wuld have all the fenders removed, receive the fiberglass fenders, have the transmission turned upside down, have the big oil tank in the front put in along with all the fuel injection and turbocharger hardware put on. Of course, they had all the oiling improvements on the motor along with welding the head to the top of the cylinders and having smaller bore and lower compression pistons put in. There was a little more than that, but if one looks at a 935 they can see how it all fits together. And last but not least, the 935 flat fan drive which was originally used in the 917. I won't get into those flat fan drives because they are desirable enough as it is. Whenever any 934 or 935 was totalled, they would just use a fresh tub from a 911 turbo and just cut the rear reflector panel and put in the aluminum roll cage. The 934 and 935 were close enough to stock that this could easily be done between races. Besides, Porsche being the nice people they always were, gave you a list of everything you needed to convert a 911 turbo to a 934 or 935. The neat thing about the 934 is that they came with full carpeting, ventilation, and power windows. The only, and I stress only, other cars that were as close to a street car as the 934 and 935 were, was the turbo 3 series BMW and the M1. I say this because both these cars used stock prodution blocks and unibody chassis from street cars. Everything else did not as they used a full tube frame with a fiberglass body resembling the original street car. Much like Steve Millen's 300ZX from the early ninetis. While you cannot get an IMSA 300ZX fender to actually bolt up to a street 300ZX, you walk up to any 935, even a Kremer K3, and take the front fenders off and put them on any 911 built from 65 to 98. Same thing with the motors. I doubt one could have just thrown in the IMSA300ZX V8 motor in place of the street car's V6. But you can take a 935 motor and after cutting some sheetmetal to fit the huge intercooler, put it right into a 911T if you wanted to. Bruce Canepa did that concept years ago by putting a 935 motor in a 89 911 Speedster that had the 934 flare extensions over the turbo flares. Neat car. I plan on turning a street 911 into a 935 myself at some point in the future. But, being a stickler for detail, first I have to convince a friend of mine to part with either his flat fan drive or a 935 motor that he has in a 930 that he owns.
As to why Porsche is racing amongnst themselves today, what I wrote above will give you an idea. To emphasize what I stated, Porsche is the only company right now that sells a race ready race car. Nobody else does. McLaren did. Mercedes was going to, but it didn't build enough cars. That's a different story altogether since they pretty much conned the ACO into allowing the CLKGTR to compete when they had no real intentions of selling street versions of that car. But today, just like at most times in the past, only Porsche or BMW has met the challenge of producing ready to run race cars. And even though BMW does it, it isn't as easy as it is with Porsches since they don't build nearly enough 3 series race cars as Porsche has built RSR's and cup cars. So the reason Porsches are racing against themselves is because you can either engineer your own Datona/Sebring/Le Mans car with a slight chance of success at best, or buy an Porsche race ready unit and try to beat the best guys by developing from something that is competitive right of the bat. And race owners usually being financially savy, they would not be race owners if they weren't, know that they can always sell something that is the accepted norm in the future much easier that some one off which might not have such a good chance of success. To really build a good, untried car at the Daytona 24 level, you need at least four times the ammount of money that you would need to buy a tried and tested car and improve upon it. That is why the Corvette with full GM money and effort was successful. Whereas the NSX's, Skylines and Supras that have run at Le Man's never fared as well. You might get one factor right, like speed, but seldom speed and durability. And even with GM or Toyota money, you might end up in failure. Look at the Cadillac. Also helping the Corvette was the fact that Porsche had not supported the 993 GT2 since the mid nineties and the Oreca team was already done with the Viper develpment not to mention Crysler bucks. For the last few years, one can count the ammount of cars in the GT2 category with the fingers of one hand. Porsche hasn't bothered with the GT2 category bacause of the dubious rules in the forced induction equivalency formula which places the restrictors just ahead of the turbochargers instead of at the intake plenum. This creates a lot of turbulence in the turbochargers which basically renders them almost useless. While incresed displacement would work, Porsche isn't in the business of producing a one-off engine like the 7 liter Corvette motor which isn't used in any other GM product. That 7 liter isn't just a bored out stock block like the 3.8 motor is basically a 964/993 motor with part number AND 103 915 80 pistons and cylinders put in. Neither is the chassis for that matter. If you total one of those Corvettes, you don't just go to the dealership and order a new chassis like you did for the 2.8RSR, 3.0RSR, 934, 935, 964RSR, 993RSR, 993GT2 and the GT3RS.
There are many reasons as to why the major manufacturers like GM with their Daytona Corvettes don't produce turnkey racers based on their own race cars and make extra money. First the extra money they would make is a drop in the bucket in comparison to what they make on their entire product line. Ready to race cars by comparison make a lot more money in percentage terms to a lower volume manufacturer like Porsche and Ferrari. That's why Ferrari built 348, 355 and now 360 challenge cars. The 550 Maranello is a one-off by Michelotto, much like the Corvette. Second, most large manufacturers like GM aren't interested in a long term domination of a venue. They are more interested in the temporary public relations. After all, their reputation does not depend on the highest nuber of wins over the years at a particular event. For Porsche and Ferrari, this is paramount. Because of this, companies like GM don't want to waste the development dollars and resources on a source of extra income that is a drop in the bucket in their overall scheme of things. GM fans don't give a rat's *** if GM does not show up at Le Mans for one year. Not the case with Porsche fans. The bitching has been coming by the truckload for the last few years. The third reason, which anyone who really understands about racing can tell you, is that no privateer will have the success rate that the factory with unlimited funds will. Therefore companies like GM, who are in it for the short term public relations, don't want to devalue the overall success of the car by having a number of the same vehicles showing up in the midfield at the finish. This has always been the case with any turnkey racer run by privateers, 934 and 935 included. If there are enough privateers involved, at least one is bound to not have enough money to make it to the front of the field. No matter what the car. This is why Audi isn't building a bunch of R8R's to sell like Porsche built the 962 and Ferrari the 333SP.
I have friends who own factory built Porsche race cars. One has a 993GT2 EVO which won the British GT championship a few years back, another who bought one of the last 993RSR's built, another has 993RSR as well, another with a 993cup, and another with a 993gt3cup. Funds were no problem for any of these guys. They could have bought anything to race around in. But the only race cars for sale ready to go are Porsches. Not only that, they know they work well. And even with a large sum of funds, do you think any of these people want to bother turning say, a Camaro for instance, into a car that is competitive with an RSR? As a sidenote, at our local tracks, we run some run-what-you-brung races where everything is allowed. These guys run with full race Vipers, used Winston Cup cars and a bunch of other things. The results, since there is no factory support or sponsorship at these events, is always predictable. Basically the Porsches are racing amongst themselves, even though they are only a tenth of the field. Even though they don't have much more than 400 hp, they are always in the front. There goes the hp is everything theory out the door. Factory support is not the great equalizer. Lack of it is. Only a toddler cannot understand this concept.
To whoever reads this, I sincerely apologize for the length of this post or difficulty in reading it. But hopefully someone will get enjoyment out of it.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
As far as the 934 and 935, things become much closer to the 911. For starters, only about a third of the 935's were actual turnkey cars. Another third were 934's that eventually became what was nicknamed 934 and a half's, and later full bore 935's. This happened as some guys would remove the CIS injection and replace it with mechanical injection, then even put in the bigger brakes, wheels, flares, etc. The last third would start out as street 911 turbos which wuld have all the fenders removed, receive the fiberglass fenders, have the transmission turned upside down, have the big oil tank in the front put in along with all the fuel injection and turbocharger hardware put on. Of course, they had all the oiling improvements on the motor along with welding the head to the top of the cylinders and having smaller bore and lower compression pistons put in. There was a little more than that, but if one looks at a 935 they can see how it all fits together. And last but not least, the 935 flat fan drive which was originally used in the 917. I won't get into those flat fan drives because they are desirable enough as it is. Whenever any 934 or 935 was totalled, they would just use a fresh tub from a 911 turbo and just cut the rear reflector panel and put in the aluminum roll cage. The 934 and 935 were close enough to stock that this could easily be done between races. Besides, Porsche being the nice people they always were, gave you a list of everything you needed to convert a 911 turbo to a 934 or 935. The neat thing about the 934 is that they came with full carpeting, ventilation, and power windows. The only, and I stress only, other cars that were as close to a street car as the 934 and 935 were, was the turbo 3 series BMW and the M1. I say this because both these cars used stock prodution blocks and unibody chassis from street cars. Everything else did not as they used a full tube frame with a fiberglass body resembling the original street car. Much like Steve Millen's 300ZX from the early ninetis. While you cannot get an IMSA 300ZX fender to actually bolt up to a street 300ZX, you walk up to any 935, even a Kremer K3, and take the front fenders off and put them on any 911 built from 65 to 98. Same thing with the motors. I doubt one could have just thrown in the IMSA300ZX V8 motor in place of the street car's V6. But you can take a 935 motor and after cutting some sheetmetal to fit the huge intercooler, put it right into a 911T if you wanted to. Bruce Canepa did that concept years ago by putting a 935 motor in a 89 911 Speedster that had the 934 flare extensions over the turbo flares. Neat car. I plan on turning a street 911 into a 935 myself at some point in the future. But, being a stickler for detail, first I have to convince a friend of mine to part with either his flat fan drive or a 935 motor that he has in a 930 that he owns.
As to why Porsche is racing amongnst themselves today, what I wrote above will give you an idea. To emphasize what I stated, Porsche is the only company right now that sells a race ready race car. Nobody else does. McLaren did. Mercedes was going to, but it didn't build enough cars. That's a different story altogether since they pretty much conned the ACO into allowing the CLKGTR to compete when they had no real intentions of selling street versions of that car. But today, just like at most times in the past, only Porsche or BMW has met the challenge of producing ready to run race cars. And even though BMW does it, it isn't as easy as it is with Porsches since they don't build nearly enough 3 series race cars as Porsche has built RSR's and cup cars. So the reason Porsches are racing against themselves is because you can either engineer your own Datona/Sebring/Le Mans car with a slight chance of success at best, or buy an Porsche race ready unit and try to beat the best guys by developing from something that is competitive right of the bat. And race owners usually being financially savy, they would not be race owners if they weren't, know that they can always sell something that is the accepted norm in the future much easier that some one off which might not have such a good chance of success. To really build a good, untried car at the Daytona 24 level, you need at least four times the ammount of money that you would need to buy a tried and tested car and improve upon it. That is why the Corvette with full GM money and effort was successful. Whereas the NSX's, Skylines and Supras that have run at Le Man's never fared as well. You might get one factor right, like speed, but seldom speed and durability. And even with GM or Toyota money, you might end up in failure. Look at the Cadillac. Also helping the Corvette was the fact that Porsche had not supported the 993 GT2 since the mid nineties and the Oreca team was already done with the Viper develpment not to mention Crysler bucks. For the last few years, one can count the ammount of cars in the GT2 category with the fingers of one hand. Porsche hasn't bothered with the GT2 category bacause of the dubious rules in the forced induction equivalency formula which places the restrictors just ahead of the turbochargers instead of at the intake plenum. This creates a lot of turbulence in the turbochargers which basically renders them almost useless. While incresed displacement would work, Porsche isn't in the business of producing a one-off engine like the 7 liter Corvette motor which isn't used in any other GM product. That 7 liter isn't just a bored out stock block like the 3.8 motor is basically a 964/993 motor with part number AND 103 915 80 pistons and cylinders put in. Neither is the chassis for that matter. If you total one of those Corvettes, you don't just go to the dealership and order a new chassis like you did for the 2.8RSR, 3.0RSR, 934, 935, 964RSR, 993RSR, 993GT2 and the GT3RS.
There are many reasons as to why the major manufacturers like GM with their Daytona Corvettes don't produce turnkey racers based on their own race cars and make extra money. First the extra money they would make is a drop in the bucket in comparison to what they make on their entire product line. Ready to race cars by comparison make a lot more money in percentage terms to a lower volume manufacturer like Porsche and Ferrari. That's why Ferrari built 348, 355 and now 360 challenge cars. The 550 Maranello is a one-off by Michelotto, much like the Corvette. Second, most large manufacturers like GM aren't interested in a long term domination of a venue. They are more interested in the temporary public relations. After all, their reputation does not depend on the highest nuber of wins over the years at a particular event. For Porsche and Ferrari, this is paramount. Because of this, companies like GM don't want to waste the development dollars and resources on a source of extra income that is a drop in the bucket in their overall scheme of things. GM fans don't give a rat's *** if GM does not show up at Le Mans for one year. Not the case with Porsche fans. The bitching has been coming by the truckload for the last few years. The third reason, which anyone who really understands about racing can tell you, is that no privateer will have the success rate that the factory with unlimited funds will. Therefore companies like GM, who are in it for the short term public relations, don't want to devalue the overall success of the car by having a number of the same vehicles showing up in the midfield at the finish. This has always been the case with any turnkey racer run by privateers, 934 and 935 included. If there are enough privateers involved, at least one is bound to not have enough money to make it to the front of the field. No matter what the car. This is why Audi isn't building a bunch of R8R's to sell like Porsche built the 962 and Ferrari the 333SP.
I have friends who own factory built Porsche race cars. One has a 993GT2 EVO which won the British GT championship a few years back, another who bought one of the last 993RSR's built, another has 993RSR as well, another with a 993cup, and another with a 993gt3cup. Funds were no problem for any of these guys. They could have bought anything to race around in. But the only race cars for sale ready to go are Porsches. Not only that, they know they work well. And even with a large sum of funds, do you think any of these people want to bother turning say, a Camaro for instance, into a car that is competitive with an RSR? As a sidenote, at our local tracks, we run some run-what-you-brung races where everything is allowed. These guys run with full race Vipers, used Winston Cup cars and a bunch of other things. The results, since there is no factory support or sponsorship at these events, is always predictable. Basically the Porsches are racing amongst themselves, even though they are only a tenth of the field. Even though they don't have much more than 400 hp, they are always in the front. There goes the hp is everything theory out the door. Factory support is not the great equalizer. Lack of it is. Only a toddler cannot understand this concept.
To whoever reads this, I sincerely apologize for the length of this post or difficulty in reading it. But hopefully someone will get enjoyment out of it.
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05-23-2003, 10:30 AM
#86
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Ed Bighi:
<strong>To whoever reads this, I sincerely apologize for the length of this post or difficulty in reading it. But hopefully someone will get enjoyment out of it.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I did... Thanks! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
<strong>To whoever reads this, I sincerely apologize for the length of this post or difficulty in reading it. But hopefully someone will get enjoyment out of it.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I did... Thanks! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
05-23-2003, 12:08 PM
#87
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Cameron, good post. The big differences between this car & George's are in the heads & cam. Larry Meaux ports heads for pro stock drag racers. He once built a 350 2bbl engine w/400 hp for round track racing. George has a close relaionship w/ Cam Motion and the cam in George's car is significantly different than that. They like him to keep the numbers to himself but I can tell you that lift on the Mustang is well over .900.
Check these videos of low performance Corvettes <a href="http://www.cartek.net/videos/pete1055.wmv" target="_blank">http://www.cartek.net/videos/pete1055.wmv</a>
<a href="http://www.cartek.net/videos/mike988.wmv" target="_blank">http://www.cartek.net/videos/mike988.wmv</a>
He says he drove the black car 70 miles back home after the race.
Check these videos of low performance Corvettes <a href="http://www.cartek.net/videos/pete1055.wmv" target="_blank">http://www.cartek.net/videos/pete1055.wmv</a>
<a href="http://www.cartek.net/videos/mike988.wmv" target="_blank">http://www.cartek.net/videos/mike988.wmv</a>
He says he drove the black car 70 miles back home after the race.
05-24-2003, 02:32 AM
#88
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Nice discussion, nice cars. I would love to have a Ferrari or a 911TT or a Z06. However, give me $100k and I would buy this: <a href="http://www.lingenfelter.com/pac725ttls1y.asp" target="_blank">http://www.lingenfelter.com/pac725ttls1y.asp</a>
725HP and a 2 year warranty. Not bad.
So the "fit and finish" would not be perfect but who cares. How many races were won by fit and finish and "refinement". "Hey Mario Andretti nice win in the Indy 500 but the fit and finish on your car - whoa, how did your wife let you drive that car in the race?"
Impeccable fit and finish is nice but nowadays its mostly used by old guys / car snobs to justify spending way too much on a car. So a vette has 3mm gaps instead of 1mm gaps on body panels, so what? 725hp would put more of a smile on my face than a 1mm body panel gap. But, to each his own.
725HP and a 2 year warranty. Not bad.
So the "fit and finish" would not be perfect but who cares. How many races were won by fit and finish and "refinement". "Hey Mario Andretti nice win in the Indy 500 but the fit and finish on your car - whoa, how did your wife let you drive that car in the race?"
Impeccable fit and finish is nice but nowadays its mostly used by old guys / car snobs to justify spending way too much on a car. So a vette has 3mm gaps instead of 1mm gaps on body panels, so what? 725hp would put more of a smile on my face than a 1mm body panel gap. But, to each his own.
05-24-2003, 02:34 AM
#89
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By the way, here are some nice motors for you Porsche guys looking to swap in a nice V8:
<a href="http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevyBigBlockV8s/502hpekassem.html" target="_blank">http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevyBigBlockV8s/502hpekassem.html</a>
or maybe this would be better:
<a href="http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevyBigBlockV8s/Ultimate_502.html" target="_blank">http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevyBigBlockV8s/Ultimate_502.html</a>
<a href="http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevyBigBlockV8s/502hpekassem.html" target="_blank">http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevyBigBlockV8s/502hpekassem.html</a>
or maybe this would be better:
<a href="http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevyBigBlockV8s/Ultimate_502.html" target="_blank">http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevyBigBlockV8s/Ultimate_502.html</a>
05-24-2003, 08:04 AM
#90
Fast - you do realize how embarrassing 500 horsepower from an 8 liter engine is in 2003, don't you? I mean, 1 horse per cubic inch - that is an anchor, my friend. what does it run on, diesel?
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />