sschmerg

Excuse me Carlos, where did I ever write that the Z06 compares poorly with a '88 911? But lets analyze that, since you brought it up.

Have you ever even driven a Z06? I have, and while it undeniably performs great, the build quality is shoddy. It obviously blows a '88 911 out of the water performance-wise, but the build quality is far inferior. If you can't acknowledge that, you're fooling yourself!

Oh, and despite the bogus figures quoted by Car & Driver and those other biased mags (don't forget they make $$$ off of advertising, and GM has a bit more pull than Porsche), a used '00 996 compares quite favorably in the performance department. I know, as I have driven them back to back and made real-world comparisons.

You completely missed my point Carlos. I am referring to factory spec cars, not custom jobs. The 911 is not about getting 600 hp at the rear wheels, it is about a complete package sports car -- right out of the box -- that can be driven legally, and somewhat reliably, on the street. I highly doubt your boy's 600 hp will pass emissions in most states, and don’t even BS me that he has trouble-free operation of that thing.

Yes, there are some problems associated with Porsches, but the problems you refer to are from quite old cars. By your reasoning, a Ferrari or a Lambo motor is a piece of **** because they're getting less hp than your buddy, at 100 times the price for maintenance. Ask yourself though, what would 999 out of 1000 people rather have/drive?

-Sean

CamB

CamB - are you saying that the 2002 iron block was used in the Benneton F1 car??????????

Nah, I'm not using logic that bad. In the early 80s, the BMW 1.5 litre turbocharged F1 engine (in Brabhams), designated M13, apparently used M10 blocks. It ran up to 4 bar of boost!

I have read they actually scoured the junk yards to find old blocks which had been heat cycled and would better stand up to the job.

It is safe to say they probably didn't last more than one race...

Here you go - I've had a quick search - 1500hp!:

<a href="http://www.research-racing.de/bmwturbo.htm" target="_blank">http://www.research-racing.de/bmwturbo.htm</a>

CamB

if you ever watch a Nascar race these engines run over seven grand all afternoon so breaking components is not an issue.

Err, yeah, but one engine only lasts a weekend worth of racing. This is irrelevant to street engines.

Randy P, part throttle in the Swamp Monster would likely surprise you.

The engine in the SM must be something special (and pretty freakin costly, regardless). Does it run on pump gas? 630hp from 383 is 100hp a litre - it MUST run crappy at low revs - you need lotsa compression, 4 valves, variable cams and EFI to convince me otherwise.

How long 'till it wears out? Geez, what's the gas milage!

Are **any** bits from Chevy, or are they all aftermarket? The block?

Finally, assuming it was run on a chassis dyno (not engine or, heaven forbid, butt dyno), what transmission loss is assumed?

In my limited experience it doesn't add up. I'm sure for anyone with decent experience, it REALLY doesn't add up.

RANDY P

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Carlos:
[QB]That sounds like the voice of experience Jeremy.

Randy P, Since George has already gone over this it's no breaking news. 383 inch small block Chevrolet, fast burn heads & Edlebrock intake ported by Meaux Racing Heads, custom grind roller cam & valve train by Cam Motion, forged steel crank & rotating assembley from Scat, 900 cfm Holley HP carb, custom headers & exhaust. As with any high performance engine the money is made with the heads & cam. It makes max power at 6300 and if you ever watch a Nascar race these engines run over seven grand all afternoon so breaking components is not an issue.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Thanks for answering Carlos, but why doesn't George answer? I prefer my info straight out of the horse's mouth. No one's enlightened me about SM- I must say I'm not too familiar with the SM except for a couple fuzzy photo's.

Ok, an aftermarket 5140 steel crank, and trick high RPM Bowtie heads and a roller cam? Can you be more a descriptive? I mean, what kind of lift and duration figures are you (and George) using with this thing? CR? I mean, it seems that if you ( and George) have created a drivable, torque happy 383 with 630 HP on tap that uses no black boxes, well, you (and George) have the rest of the world beat. I want to know the magic combination is? 630 HP N/A?! on a 383? That's a puny a$$ displacement if it really puts out that kind of power, which means one thing - such a small block would be so high strung - and you can forget day to day manners and durability. I don't care what you (or George) say, I'm certain that George's motor has to be torn down quite frequently since you're grenading rings and whatnot on a regular basis - like to the tune of every 20K mi or so (my guess). Headwork or not, It's gonna be a tempermental, torque starved dog at part throttle. No amount of headwork can fix that - welcome to the world of 2 valve Chevy's - not to mention a PIA with the gas you're gonna have to run. This opinion is based on what you're telling me. Don't you (or George)try make this car sound like it's a get inside, beat the crap out of it 24/7/365 kind of rig that digs Chevron Premium that your mother (or George's mother) can drive too, cuz it's not.

Just like those Fords, I doubt you're that high - but a dyno sheet would be nice.

I want GEORGE to tell me about his 2k HP SB Fords too? I haven't forgotten about those claims either.

I don't know how Nascar rigs run so long at such high rpm- but does it matter? The subject at hand is, specifically, how "George's" car can? Please explain it to me, if it works, I'll be sure to build one of my own..



</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">[qb]As for the driveline, give this some thought. When George was making 480 hp he broke every driveline piece from the clutch to the lug nuts. How do these 700 hp turbos (220 more than George) run like animals on stock drivelines. Give that some thought. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Actually, I don't know anyone with 700HP on a 915. I don't think you do either from the way this conversation is going though. If I did know someone, they're either using fortified 930 boxes, or are into rebuilding 915's for fun. That's not a reliable combo either. Once again, I want to know how "George" does it.

I still can't envision a 630 Hp (wink wink) 383 that is as durable and drivable as a stock or modified Porsche. Please enlighten me some more.

rjp

Devia

Sorry you had a lemon there, George, but it happens every once in awhile with nearly every type of car. Also depends on what you were doing to it/with it.

Cars are like drinking Budweiser vs a thick German Lager, dudes. It's preference, and trying to convince an idiot like the one at the bar otherwise is just wasting your breath.

And just when you think that's bad enough, I had a blk/blk Diablo VT tail me yesterday then blow my doors off! Heh, bad for him, we wound up in bad traffic where I pulled up next to him and gave him the thumbs up - bastard had his windows tinted illegal dark, with a little spot to see his rear view mirrors, lol. Tacky, tacky! Tags were INCORPU. All those horses and my 'lil ol' Porsche just outmaneuvered him back into the fast lane, still moving! He sat there...awhile.

- Julie

jet911

FWIW, I was watching "NASCAR Today," a couple of weekends ago. I can't recall who they were interviewing, however the driver stated that after "every" race, the car went into the mechanic team for a total engine rebuild. Even this last weekends Winston Cup Championship Series, the winner of the first race stated that he had a good chance "if" the engine would hold up for the rest of the day. Quit watching as had other things to do, so I don't know what the result at the end of the day was...

I think we are comparing mangos to prunes... My dad worked for GM for 30 years. As I was growing up all we owned were Chevys. I was an American made car fan and a Chevy fan in particular until college (1969), when my eyes got opened to European cars and I have never owned an American made car since (even though I can still get great discounts on GM products)...

Carlos

Randy P, Call Darren Dakota At Cam Motion in Baton Rouge LA & tell him about all the lies George & I have been spouting about his engine & how in your expert opinion these claims are impossible. While you're on the phone you can explain to him that there are no 2000 hp sb Fords, again in your expert opinion. Be sure & explain the part about frequent rebuilds on the Chevrolet motor. Please post Darren's response. As for reliability of hot Porsches, read these boards. It's poor at best.

CamB your coment on the nascar engines show how complete your lack of understanding is. So do you think that Porsches that race in the top classes just change oil between races? Or maybe every 2 or 3 races?

Sean, you want to talk about build quality, go to the corvette boards. The endless listings af people with problems that you see on ALL these boards do not exist. And if you think a n/a 996 compares favorable to a Z06 your criteria must be turning circle diameter or winshield wiper effiency. 'Cause a Z06 will trash a n/a 996 in EVER other measure of performance. Now maybe that's a conspiracy & the keep all the problems secret but that's not what I think. And as to the comments about the Ferrari or Lambo, I don't have enough experience with either to make a statement about their reliability. But you know what's nice? To get along side one of those mega dollar wonders & know you can hand him his *** if he gets in the throttle is a very good feeling. Very, very, very few Porsche owners know what that feels like. George is one of them.

Julie, while you're at it, why dont you extend your sympathy to the legion of other "poor bastrds" out here who apparently also got lemons. These boards are loaded down with people looking to solve problems. If all these are "lemons" maybe Porshce should re-locate from Stuttgart to Kissimmee, Fl. Those folks know a lot about lemons & could probably help with production.

P-on

Well Carlos and George I see it this way:

You have sex with Rosie O'Donnell and sex with Heather Locklear. Your outcome at the end is the same either way. However, the total experience is decidedly different. You have to choose what you like.

special tool

where is the sheet?

special tool

Carlos - cut the comedy. I posted in the other topic to George about a 6 liter pushrod Chevy that makes 630 hp. I have a modern 6 liter Vortec overhead cam in my pickup, and let me tell you what a piece of shat it is. Six friggin liters and ONLY 300 horsepower and it still pings on regular. It has to be the most dispicable engine I have ever bought - really.
George has obviously been challenged about the output of that pos - so post a friggin dyno sheet from aj's garage or wherever the hell it is, and we'll shut up. How are you going to post output with no dyno - output that high, and no dyno time????????????????????????/
Stop fooling around
By the way, anyone who thinks Nascar engines are backwardsass tech., think again. That is a false image portrayed by Nascar to keep the hillbilly market. Those engines are individual barrel fired, fueled and tested for every minute air change at the long tracks and are the utmost of power output conceivable - don't be fooled by that "min hind a wrenchis" bs - those guys know what the hell they are doing and are all engineers. I would not hesitate to have emergancy brain surgery performed on me at Rousche's shop.

<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

RANDY P

OK Carlos, I get it. You're just a mouthpiece. Since you can't seem to post in 1st person, I have no choice but to quit. You are now excused from any more liability.

That's all.

rjp

Ed Bighi

Actually, the 964 RSR 3.8's and 993 RSR 3.8's were rebuilt only after running both the Daytona 24 hours and the Sebring 12 hours. That is 36 hours ***** to the wall racing. Basically, no other car does that. Other cars will do Daytona, and maybe finish. But not both on the same build. Though some people rebuilt the flat sixes after just Daytona for ensurance. But the factory spec was around just over 36 hours of racing. That, my friends, is a virtual ****load of hours in a race motor. Especially worthy of mention is the Swiss Stadler racing team which consisted of Enzo Calderari and Lilian Bryner. In their 964 RSR 3.8, they won the GT3 class at Daytona three years in a row. Even during the 993 era while still using the 964. That particular car, was only used for the 36 hours of Florida. The engine would get rebuilt just before the race, used to win the class, run at Sebring, then left until next year to win again. If anyone has ever been to the Daytona 24, count the number of non-factory entered pushrod cars still running at the finish when compared to the ones that start, then do the same for the 911's. The result will give you an idea why most privateers run a flat six. As far as the GT3RS's, they also hold up for just as long since they run water cooled heads and pistons bolted onto the old air-cooled 964/993 crankcases, cranks and hardware.

The undisputed fact is that if one wants to run endurance racing for the cheapest price possible and at the same time have the highest chance of success in his or her class, there is no other way to go but to use a 964/993 crankcase based flat six. This isn't just some hypothesis. This is a fact that anyone at any endurance race will tell you. They might run something else due to sponsorship constraints or whatever. But numbers don't lie. Look at the entry sheets. If you are going to pay your own way to race endurance, you go 911. And don't waste your time looking at some other factory supported car for comparison, as in Tom Milner's BMW team. Go see if any other BMW not entered by Milner was as successful. Same with non factory Corvettes. The Vipers that ran at the end of the 90's, by the way, were only really successful when run by the Oreca team. And those were built by Reynard. No other Viper was even close to those. I remember years ago, Georgia racer Jack Lewis stated that the main reason he ran a 911 in IMSA in the late eighties and early nineties was because it was the only thing he could afford. Anything els he tried had more breakdowns with the additional costs that come with those. The 911 was the cheapest way to go racing endurance. True in those days, and true today.

Carlos

Well now Ed, if the Corvettes backed their power down to the level of the 911's they'd run a long time too without a rebuild. But go look at the results of those races before you brag too much about Porsche's results. Any crew chief on a serious team who did not overhaul the engine after a 24 hr endurance race would & should be fired.

Special tool, I understand the "tool" part. Can you explain the "special" part.

special tool

Sure, Carlos- special is how I feel when someone shows me a dyno sheet, instead of gums-a-flappin.

<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

t.p.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> As for reliability of hot Porsches, read these boards. It's poor at best.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Carlos, please. When are you gonna get it that people use these boards when they're having problems. No one's gonna go on and say, "guess what guys, over 30,000 on the upgrades and no problems." But the fact of the matter is, there are tons of porsche owners like this out there, myself included.

With regard to no one posting about Z06 problems on the Z06 boards: 1) that's bs; and 2) those cars have only been around for two years, so comparing them to 10-20+ year old porsches is stupid. In any event, it's a known fact that the Z06 motor burns a ****load of oil right out of the box. Let's see where that car is 10 years from now. I guarantee that it will be a heap of **** just like all the ZR-1's you see around now.