Talk about a "discovery",..GEEZE....
03-06-2010, 06:16 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
"Illusion is painfully shattered right where discovery starts"
I had a two different clients with 964 cars that bought them with chips already installed. They seemed to constantly chase drivability issues and we concluded that we should reinstall the stock chip to evaluate. Both customers never came back with the issues again, in fact, they said the car ran better with the stock chip. So, there is a lot of conjecture about the value of chips, and honestly I don't gravitate toward them as end-all/be-all performance improvers like some people do. I feel that there is strong evidence that they compliment other mods and can work wonderfully in concert with an overall performance objective. I will stay glued to this thread as it's sure to be a good installment in the chip/no chip debate - we have a heavy weight in the ring with shepp.
I had a two different clients with 964 cars that bought them with chips already installed. They seemed to constantly chase drivability issues and we concluded that we should reinstall the stock chip to evaluate. Both customers never came back with the issues again, in fact, they said the car ran better with the stock chip. So, there is a lot of conjecture about the value of chips, and honestly I don't gravitate toward them as end-all/be-all performance improvers like some people do. I feel that there is strong evidence that they compliment other mods and can work wonderfully in concert with an overall performance objective. I will stay glued to this thread as it's sure to be a good installment in the chip/no chip debate - we have a heavy weight in the ring with shepp.
CSMAB
03-06-2010, 07:30 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Not all aftermarket chips are created the same. eBay is littered with "one size fits all" versions. The other thing is Shepp's '89 stands to gain less than an early Carrera, as Porsche had tweaked tuning along the line.
03-06-2010, 07:43 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Bird's Rush references need no qualification, as we both understand, as fellow RUSH "disciples".......in fact, I couldn't imagine a thread with the "Bird" that wouldn't somehow come round to RUSH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Carlo_Carrera: I'm an EE who's wielded many a soldering iron, so I'm good-2-go with anything "electronic".....
As well, am familiar with the MANY threads spent dissecting the chip "thang"......I don't necc'y need to go there (not what this thread's about). I just wnated to share in something that was SO FRIKIN' SHOCKING TO ME, being the **** retentive type.....How many times have I seen the bolded letters under that fuel cover?!?!?!?!?!?!?!,..never paying attention to the smallest of the print (A.P.E) at the very bottom....remembering NOT furthering my endeavor with the seat removal.........way back...
Hope to get the dremmel out tomorrow and get that stripped seat bolt out of there (for one) and dismount that DME and see what lurks inside. (I understand that one can remove the DME w/out seat removal)....
Once I know what's REALLY there (signage aside) then I can go forward. Will certainly find something that will bare specific questions (what does the chip do? Specifically......) I'm just so floored with this discovery, having not known.
It's been many a year since I owned a Porsche,..and welcomed this 911 Carrera into my home almost 3 1/2 years ago....she's always run really well.....I've always sensed that she really revs easily......very quick,....mid-range is really on.......and she'll easily provide some healthy top-end speeds...I just never was aware that she's running a non-Porsche chip....can you imagine my surprise? Now , I'm wanting to know specifically what was programmed from THAT company.... (the rev limit,..the timing (advanced degrees), maps,..etc) ). It's always troubled me that there existed no way of measuring "knock/ping" without mods (and no subsequent control of the event) and always had a slight bit of reservation with factory chip mods.........perfectly happy with the street performance I presently have.....(assumed to be stock BUT CHIPPED !!!)
I've had a few conversations with Steve Wong a while back..very informative discussion...what a nice guy........VERY helpful.....he really presented things clearly,......... When done, I had a much better understanding of what it is that he does.................
My point is simply to share this discovery (embarrasing as it may be, to me). Guess I should have persisted in that seat removal that day,..in the meantime, (as mentioned), I've helped to repair of few of these DMEs....what an eye-opener... Please: no chip wars.........Clearly: I'd like to know what a stock chip feels like, (as weird as that [now] seems to me).
No immediate worries,..just questions. What is the setup on my chip,..that is my question(s). For all I know, this could be some very early rev.....once I get her out for viewing (numbers !!!!!!) , I'll pose the questions to the company and see where the pavement hits the road.....
Yes: "right where discovery starts" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best to all,
Doyle
Carlo_Carrera: I'm an EE who's wielded many a soldering iron, so I'm good-2-go with anything "electronic".....
As well, am familiar with the MANY threads spent dissecting the chip "thang"......I don't necc'y need to go there (not what this thread's about). I just wnated to share in something that was SO FRIKIN' SHOCKING TO ME, being the **** retentive type.....How many times have I seen the bolded letters under that fuel cover?!?!?!?!?!?!?!,..never paying attention to the smallest of the print (A.P.E) at the very bottom....remembering NOT furthering my endeavor with the seat removal.........way back...
Hope to get the dremmel out tomorrow and get that stripped seat bolt out of there (for one) and dismount that DME and see what lurks inside. (I understand that one can remove the DME w/out seat removal)....
Once I know what's REALLY there (signage aside) then I can go forward. Will certainly find something that will bare specific questions (what does the chip do? Specifically......) I'm just so floored with this discovery, having not known.
It's been many a year since I owned a Porsche,..and welcomed this 911 Carrera into my home almost 3 1/2 years ago....she's always run really well.....I've always sensed that she really revs easily......very quick,....mid-range is really on.......and she'll easily provide some healthy top-end speeds...I just never was aware that she's running a non-Porsche chip....can you imagine my surprise? Now , I'm wanting to know specifically what was programmed from THAT company.... (the rev limit,..the timing (advanced degrees), maps,..etc) ). It's always troubled me that there existed no way of measuring "knock/ping" without mods (and no subsequent control of the event) and always had a slight bit of reservation with factory chip mods.........perfectly happy with the street performance I presently have.....(assumed to be stock BUT CHIPPED !!!)
I've had a few conversations with Steve Wong a while back..very informative discussion...what a nice guy........VERY helpful.....he really presented things clearly,......... When done, I had a much better understanding of what it is that he does.................
My point is simply to share this discovery (embarrasing as it may be, to me). Guess I should have persisted in that seat removal that day,..in the meantime, (as mentioned), I've helped to repair of few of these DMEs....what an eye-opener... Please: no chip wars.........Clearly: I'd like to know what a stock chip feels like, (as weird as that [now] seems to me).
No immediate worries,..just questions. What is the setup on my chip,..that is my question(s). For all I know, this could be some very early rev.....once I get her out for viewing (numbers !!!!!!) , I'll pose the questions to the company and see where the pavement hits the road.....
Yes: "right where discovery starts" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best to all,
Doyle
03-06-2010, 07:45 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I have to agree that maybe THEY aren't ALL equal? I need to know WTF is loaded in my baby......simply.
Best,
Doyle
03-08-2010, 09:35 AM
#22
Race Car
csmab. I am remiss. I should most definitly give a nod to the auther. Dshepp and I exchange RUSH lyrics in some detatched context all over this board. It's probably annoying to those that don't "get it".
It's always nice to meet fellow Rush fans though. Carry on.
It's always nice to meet fellow Rush fans though. Carry on.
03-08-2010, 06:42 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Bird: and it's priceless.....never stop,..and pay no attention to any "curmmugeoinic peoples"....
I'm still waiting to fing the time to get the damned thing out and get REV levels (no idea as to production tear) to engage the company and Dr. Wong. This chip has frikin' specs,..and I want to know where they are,..THAT simple ....even though she's running quite fine, performance wise, I HAVE to know a few things.......Maybe you guys would be contributory as to what to ask/look for. I've several things I know of already (thru attendence at the NGs) such as timing changes (all of 'em), fuel map changes, rev limit alterations (increases), part throttle alterations,....anymore?
I've just always assumed the factory chip was in there,..all this time. This car revs VERY easily in 1st and second gear and has always had the "get-up-and-go"....no dyno stuff to quantify,,,...I don't track it.
I'm still floored at my passivity in checking it early on...a real head-shaker.
I've studied (best I can) the chip war debates that permeate many newsgroups,..have taken' it all in coming out on the conservative side,..(assumedly) opting to not touch anything just yet,...get a few years under the belt (as is) ,..research it,..then make the move,...Steve Wong aided tremendously on this research path and put me at ease as to the fact that I've control over what I want.....such an easy guy to work with,..his hallmark. As most of the elements are outside my expertise, I have to study,..ask questions,..draw conlusions,..being an engineer helps,..but it doesn't make me a Porsche mechanic/design engineer,..I've always paid attention to this crucial difference.
As example, when one speaks of upping the rev limiter, I can't help but go look for answers relating to the questions that involve the components invloved that will feel this stress,...their tolerances, specs, etc......more importantly are things relating to ANY condition that would cause "knocking", as this system has no stock way of sensing/controlling this terrible condition.......surely there may be (limiting) programming parameters that would not induce "knock/ping", but one would want to do their homework first,..Sorry, but I can't simply go with word-of-mouth endoresements,..yeap: they're good many of the time,..BUT NEVER in a "blanket" fashion,..at least, not with me. It has to be explained so that it makes sense....
To find a previously-undiscovered chipping arrangement is moreso a "nervousness-generating" experience than anything else,...It's OK,..I'm over the initial shock (all cooled out),..but I've work to do....
How's THAT for NOT instigating a chip war discussion.........?
Thanks for all of you guys' inputs......
Best to all,
Doyle
I'm still waiting to fing the time to get the damned thing out and get REV levels (no idea as to production tear) to engage the company and Dr. Wong. This chip has frikin' specs,..and I want to know where they are,..THAT simple ....even though she's running quite fine, performance wise, I HAVE to know a few things.......Maybe you guys would be contributory as to what to ask/look for. I've several things I know of already (thru attendence at the NGs) such as timing changes (all of 'em), fuel map changes, rev limit alterations (increases), part throttle alterations,....anymore?
I've just always assumed the factory chip was in there,..all this time. This car revs VERY easily in 1st and second gear and has always had the "get-up-and-go"....no dyno stuff to quantify,,,...I don't track it.
I'm still floored at my passivity in checking it early on...a real head-shaker.
I've studied (best I can) the chip war debates that permeate many newsgroups,..have taken' it all in coming out on the conservative side,..(assumedly) opting to not touch anything just yet,...get a few years under the belt (as is) ,..research it,..then make the move,...Steve Wong aided tremendously on this research path and put me at ease as to the fact that I've control over what I want.....such an easy guy to work with,..his hallmark. As most of the elements are outside my expertise, I have to study,..ask questions,..draw conlusions,..being an engineer helps,..but it doesn't make me a Porsche mechanic/design engineer,..I've always paid attention to this crucial difference.
As example, when one speaks of upping the rev limiter, I can't help but go look for answers relating to the questions that involve the components invloved that will feel this stress,...their tolerances, specs, etc......more importantly are things relating to ANY condition that would cause "knocking", as this system has no stock way of sensing/controlling this terrible condition.......surely there may be (limiting) programming parameters that would not induce "knock/ping", but one would want to do their homework first,..Sorry, but I can't simply go with word-of-mouth endoresements,..yeap: they're good many of the time,..BUT NEVER in a "blanket" fashion,..at least, not with me. It has to be explained so that it makes sense....
To find a previously-undiscovered chipping arrangement is moreso a "nervousness-generating" experience than anything else,...It's OK,..I'm over the initial shock (all cooled out),..but I've work to do....
How's THAT for NOT instigating a chip war discussion.........?
Thanks for all of you guys' inputs......
Best to all,
Doyle
03-08-2010, 06:53 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
You may not get any specs on this unless Steve gets it and reads what the programming is. There have been a few aftermarket chips over the years, and I'd think most were/are fairly conservative, particularly if one were mass-marketed, as it would appear yours may have been. I only say that since they went to the trouble of printing the warning stickers.
I think that is why Steve has carved out a niche, as he's offered a quasi-custom offering based on a particular car's needs and modifications.
As long as you've been running 93 and continue to do so until you get this thing read/reverse engineered, or a new chip from Steve, you can't be any worse than you were prior.
Then, of course, there is the truly custom on-dyno tuning he can do, which is what I'm going to find out about soon enough.
I think that is why Steve has carved out a niche, as he's offered a quasi-custom offering based on a particular car's needs and modifications.
As long as you've been running 93 and continue to do so until you get this thing read/reverse engineered, or a new chip from Steve, you can't be any worse than you were prior.
Then, of course, there is the truly custom on-dyno tuning he can do, which is what I'm going to find out about soon enough.
03-08-2010, 07:01 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Looking forward to that part of your thread, Ed. Gonna' be good.
Correct on Steve's "niche".....so true.
I've not put anything BUT 93 octane in this car since I've owned it,..without fail,..under no circumstances was nuttin' but 93 loaded,..period...
If APE is not supportive,..I'll just send the damned thing to Steve to read it.....really simple.
Thanks for the reply, Ed. Best of luck on your ongoing rebuild........am a fan of the thread, 4-sure.
Doyle
Correct on Steve's "niche".....so true.
I've not put anything BUT 93 octane in this car since I've owned it,..without fail,..under no circumstances was nuttin' but 93 loaded,..period...
If APE is not supportive,..I'll just send the damned thing to Steve to read it.....really simple.
Thanks for the reply, Ed. Best of luck on your ongoing rebuild........am a fan of the thread, 4-sure.
Doyle
03-09-2010, 10:51 AM
#28
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Doyle, does your car have a cat bypass &/or a modded airfilter box?
I must admit I've never checked mine (9 yrs!), even though friends w/ lotsa '87-89 experience insist mine runs very strong & suspect it's been chipped. I've installed a bypass & drilled some holes in the box (when I first got it, though I agree w/ the wisdom that it isn't airflow limited, esp in near-stock config). one in particular (40k mi '89) has a SW chip, SSIs & a machined throttle body - we haven't done "empirical research" on the street yet (my excuse is I need to do a valve adj first), but it seems my car is still very close to his in perf - only other mods I've done is to remove rear seat-backs, belts & the giant rear bumper overriders (I usually drive w/o the spare, too). I guess I'll check mine when I remove the driver's seat to position the DME relay in the vertical position - which I'm told may minimize mtbf (any opinions on that?). some pics (mine is the wet silver one)...
I must admit I've never checked mine (9 yrs!), even though friends w/ lotsa '87-89 experience insist mine runs very strong & suspect it's been chipped. I've installed a bypass & drilled some holes in the box (when I first got it, though I agree w/ the wisdom that it isn't airflow limited, esp in near-stock config). one in particular (40k mi '89) has a SW chip, SSIs & a machined throttle body - we haven't done "empirical research" on the street yet (my excuse is I need to do a valve adj first), but it seems my car is still very close to his in perf - only other mods I've done is to remove rear seat-backs, belts & the giant rear bumper overriders (I usually drive w/o the spare, too). I guess I'll check mine when I remove the driver's seat to position the DME relay in the vertical position - which I'm told may minimize mtbf (any opinions on that?). some pics (mine is the wet silver one)...
03-09-2010, 11:03 AM
#29
Race Car
wow ked, those are two beautiful coupes. I've always understood that one problem with chips are the variations in the environment they are used in. There are regional variations in fuel quality, altitude, etc. No one chip is perfect everywhere after it begins to push the limits of timing and fuel in a given temperature. That may be the reason that Ed states that the mass marketed chips are pretty conservative, as it stands to reason. Autothority has always offered to reflash a chip after other mods were made to a car and they seem pretty good about doing this to remedy drivability problems chips can cause due to environmental changes. Anyway, not much to offer other than it is encouraging that SW will work very closely on an individual basis.
03-09-2010, 04:48 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
KED,
Mine is bone-stock,..no performance mods.
Only mods I've installed is the headlight relay switching, removal of rear wiper then converting that dash switch to manually engage front oil cooler fan at will (it's thermostat still works normally) and to fuse the circuits that the Germans didn't fuse.
That's it.......
As to relay,...it's good to have this jewel mechanically isolated from vibration sources (directly).
As soon as I get this puppy out, I'm calling Wong.......
..I still can't believe it (or me...I should say).
Hey Bird,..still haven't forgotten' about the PM,..I'm still trying to organize my thoughts and gather pics...Should the format turn to be Gonzo-styled, then so be it....bet you wouldn't bat an eye, either.
Standby for news....
Best to all,
Doyle
Mine is bone-stock,..no performance mods.
Only mods I've installed is the headlight relay switching, removal of rear wiper then converting that dash switch to manually engage front oil cooler fan at will (it's thermostat still works normally) and to fuse the circuits that the Germans didn't fuse.
That's it.......
As to relay,...it's good to have this jewel mechanically isolated from vibration sources (directly).
As soon as I get this puppy out, I'm calling Wong.......
..I still can't believe it (or me...I should say).
Hey Bird,..still haven't forgotten' about the PM,..I'm still trying to organize my thoughts and gather pics...Should the format turn to be Gonzo-styled, then so be it....bet you wouldn't bat an eye, either.
Standby for news....
Best to all,
Doyle