Baby

I have been looking at classified ads for a couple months and have driven 6 cars (and have seen twice that number) thus far. At this point, I've seen a couple I like, and I want to get some pre-PPI feedback.

#1
85 w/180k
$15k negotiable

the good:
2nd owner
dry engine---no leaks
top end and clutch rebuilt at 130k
short shift kit
new bilstein all the way around
recent paint
turbo tie rod
new ball joints
new wheel bearings
rebuilt brake calipers w/steel lines
new fuel pump

the bad:
details showed car was not loved e.g., couple clamps around the muffler were loose, one of the bolts and nuts from the ac compressor was missing (found on the trunk lip, where i guess the mechanic had left it when he did the fuel pump)
Owners were not enthusiasts. Indicated car hasn't been driven much. Short trips to the market, etc...

driving impression:
Smooth but somewhat docile acceleration. Great brakes. Shifter was stiff and difficult to get into 1st and 2nd. Seemed to handle a bit loose---felt like it drifted a little wide.


#2
82 w/175k miles
$12k

the good:
new transmission
new bilsteins all around
new torsion bars
carerra brake upgrade
steel brake lines
corners balanced
turbo valve covers
new catalytic converter
new fuel pump

the bad:
incomplete ownership history (on at least its 3rd)
old paint---well sealed but knackered
driver door repainted
small oil leak

driving impression:
strong motor, rides on rails, shifts like a dream


The first thing that comes to mind in comparing these is that #1 will need a transmission rebuild sometime and that #2 will need a top end rebuild sometime. The second thing that comes to mind is the presentation: #1 was dirty, lots of brake dust on the wheels, etc.....; #2 was as clean as it could possibly be.

I worry about how #1 was driven and cared for. I imagine I can get it tuned to handle a little sharper. I can tell #2 was cared for and obsessed over, and I love the way it drives; but I worry a bit about the oil leak and the high miles on the top end.

Any suggestions? Things I should consider? Things beyond the usual I should request the PPI mechanic to look at?

theiceman

i wouldn't worry at all about the oil leak indicating it needs a rebuild, they are not related. Oil leaks on 911s although not desireable are not at all uncommon. Although opinions may differ I wouldn't let a car with no history stop my deal if it checked out fine on a PPI.

to me the second oe actually sounds like a btter car believe it or not. 1st and second gear synchtos are shot on the first . Also somewaht common and it needs a transmision rebuild.

Baby

Thanks for your thoughts and encouragement, theiceman. While I realize oil leaks are a reality with air-cooled motors and do not indicate the need for a rebuild, I wonder how this car can run 175k miles WITHOUT a rebuild at some point. I suppose if the leak is minor or sourced to something like an oil return line and the leakdown numbers are good (the last test a few years ago showed 3-4% across all cylinders) it won't matter if it's been rebuilt or not! I wonder though, budgeting for a rebuild that would happen sometime over the next couple years whether I might find one for the money that's already had the work done. Thanks again.

theiceman

you bring up a good point about the no rebuild and you are probably right .. i would suggest a leakdown test as it will give you a good indication of engine wear. also oil consumption numbers are a tell tale sign , but may be difficult to obtain.

It is true that one already done will ultimately work out cheaper than one that has to be done ..

Peter Zimmermann

#1
85 w/180k
$15k negotiable

the good:
2nd owner
dry engine---no leaks
top end and clutch rebuilt at 130k: Invoice available? If yes, have you taken a copy to that shop and asked, "OK, tell me about this car."
short shift kit: Factory or after market junk?
new bilstein all the way around: Invoice? HD or Sport type?
recent paint: Invoice?
turbo tie rod
new ball joints
new wheel bearings
rebuilt brake calipers w/steel lines
new fuel pump

#2
82 w/175k miles
$12k

the good:
new transmission: Define "new". Invoice with parts list available?
new bilsteins all around: HD or Sport?
new torsion bars: WHY?
carerra brake upgrade: Basically not an upgrade, Carrera brake pads use a wear sensor which was probably not done on the SC.
steel brake lines: DOT approved or junk?
corners balanced: Invoice?
turbo valve covers
new catalytic converter: Factory or after market? CO% check nipple installed? Oxy sensor installed and connected?
new fuel pump

the bad:
incomplete ownership history (on at least its 3rd)
old paint---well sealed but knackered
driver door repainted
small oil leak: This can be expensive (camshaft o-ring), a complete, very expensive, tear down (#8 main bearing o-ring), or not serious at all (oil return tubes). It can be a very serious fire hazard (thermostat o-ring), or a minor oil line drip.

During a PPI #2 MUST HAVE the lower rocker covers removed and the cylinder head studs checked!!!

MUST READ: https://rennlist.com/forums/911-foru...immermann.html

Baby

Thanks, all for the advice. I am heeding it. (Pete, I've read your checklist, and your book has also been of great help.) It's still puzzling how a car (#2) with so much potentially wrong with it can blow away the others I've driven. I welcome additional comments on the responses to Pete's inquiries.

Oh yeah, and in 03 #2's leakdown numbers were 3-4% across the board. No blue or black smoke on startup or acceleration.

#1
85 w/180k
$15k negotiable

top end and clutch rebuilt at 130k: Invoice available? If yes, have you taken a copy to that shop and asked, "OK, tell me about this car."
Invoice available. Work was done by an independent VW/Porsche shop.

short shift kit: Factory or after market junk?
factory

new bilstein all the way around: Invoice? HD or Sport type?
Sport

recent paint: Invoice?
Yes


#2
82 w/175k miles
$12k

new transmission: Define "new". Invoice with parts list available?
Owner did not have invoice when I looked at the car but since has secured a copy from the shop (S-cargo: http://www.scargoracing.com/). Of course, I'll have a close look at it if I move forward. Speaking of records, one flag raised was that according to the owner, Hi-tech in San Rafael (from whom the owner bought the car on consignment in 03) has a folder of service records they would not release to him, claiming they belong to the shop, not to the car. I had never heard of that policy.

new bilsteins all around: HD or Sport?
Sport

new torsion bars: WHY?
I'll ask. He did 21/26 with elephant bronze srping plate bushings.

steel brake lines: DOT approved or junk?
S&S

corners balanced: Invoice?
Yes

new catalytic converter: Factory or after market? CO% check nipple installed? Oxy sensor installed and connected?
I'm not sure about the factory/aftermarket or if any of that is connected, but I'll check.

small oil leak: This can be expensive (camshaft o-ring), a complete, very expensive, tear down (#8 main bearing o-ring), or not serious at all (oil return tubes). It can be a very serious fire hazard (thermostat o-ring), or a minor oil line drip.

During a PPI #2 MUST HAVE the lower rocker covers removed and the cylinder head studs checked!!!

rusnak

I'm not sure why the OP thinks the transmission on #1 will have to be rebuilt soon. Difficulty getting into gear/ balky shifting can be either coupler adjustment or shifter bushing wear. If the syncros are weak, then you'll get crunchy or grinding as you try to shift into gear.

Why was the driver's door re-painted on #2? Accident history report?

Baby

The owner didn't know why the door was repainted. No accident history on the carfax. On the positive side, the skin looks smooth and straight, and the door gaps and door operation are perfect.

Peter Zimmermann

A note regarding Sport Bilsteins. They are very ride-unfriendly, and are very alignment sensitive. They are also not stock suspension friendly, which might explain the bad vibes that you're getting from the Carrera. My '82 SC had Sport Bilsteins installed by the PO, I hated them so much that I replaced them with HD units, and have never regretted that decision (the car is Euro height, corner-balanced and perfect alignment). To verify if the rear shocks are truly "Sport" version, they will be yellow (HD Bilsteins are green).

whalebird

Great thread with good input from Pete. Looking down the road with your objective for the car may be a factor. It seems #2 has lots of suspension work done and this would get you closer to a wonderful DE car. Sorting things as posted above, planning on a top end with SSI exhaust on an otherwise sound chassis could yeild quite a driver/performer.

Peter Zimmermann

Unless he's in CA , then he'll get a trip to the crusher!

Baby

I am indeed in CA! No fancy exhaust for me.

Update on #2...

The garage that has done most of the work (scargo) was kind enough to explain the work they've done on the car over the years.

brakes, as mentioned, for $4k
cam tower seals replaced
oil return line replaced
suspension work, as mentioned
smog

the owner said the guy "put a lot of money into" it.

passed smog a month ago.

2005 leakdown was 3-4% across cylinders 1-5 and 6% in cylinder 6.

Peter Zimmermann

That's pretty good news, but it still needs a PPI and head stud inspection!

Hey, check out the time of your post #12, maybe you're shopping for the wrong model P-car!

Baby

Baby steps, Pete.

butzip

For us 'east coasters', it says 06:56, which assume you see 03:56 Pics of the cars?? #2 sound like a winner. Remember you're driving the car not the records and #2 sound like a much better cared for and sorted driver. just my opinion...