TR6

Anybody see this article in the Blackstone newletter questioning the value of high levels of ZDDP? I'm curious as to opinions on this.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsl...m_medium=email

theiceman

The guy seams like an undergrad trying to get a paper published. a lot of yabbering with a little data thrown in . I would give it a C+ at best if I was grading it.

HarryD

A really poor article. Shame on Blackstone for publishing this crap.

After all, where are the citations to the SAE research that orginally established the use of ZDDP at 1200+ ppm as the correct amount?

His personal test with a motor with 3,000 miles does not tell much of a story since the wear will take many 1000's of miles to manifest itself.

Use of a Chevy 350 V-8 which may not rev as high as our cars do does not inspire confidence. Does he track motor? Where does the engine normally run 1,500 rpm? 4,000 rpm, 6,000 rpm?

I can go on and on.

theiceman

yeah i noticed thai and a lot more harry but figured it was wasted commentary ... you can tekit is not a real white paper by any means ..

URG8RB8

I know it has been a while since this post was active, but I noticed both fully synthetic and dinosaur Valvoline VR1 20-50W last night at Kragen. I bought the dino, but curious if anyone has tested the fully synthetic version? It states on the bottle that it also has high zinc phosphorus and zddp. Just curious, I have a tiny rear main seal leak, so I am better off with the dino for now.

dshepp806

I used to send in several virgin samples to both Blackstone and Staveleys (out of the same bottle, mind you)..rx'd different results from the analysis (per vendor,...with Staveley being repeatable EACH time and Blackstone all over the place)......I chose to stay with Stavely's,..this experience has been had by others (I do believe Charles posted on this a good while back).....

I agree with Steve W's post, also. high spring tension on a NON-ROLLER TAPPET ENGINE (how about THAT wording?) I stay within the world that says we need these types of oil for longevity....and sleep quite well,..aspecially after a 3K miles changeout. And will continue to do so, forever.

Doyle

Daniel Dudley

Go back and read post # 7. As someone who has experienced cam failure, I can tell you it is no joke, and thousands upon thousands of engines were destroyed by cam failure before anyone figured out the cause.

Now that the cause is well known, and well verified, it is counterproductive to make a claim that it is hogwash. I have made at least 50 posts defending the use of ZDDP in our cars, and I am getting sick of it. But here goes again...

ZDDP is a metallic additive that ONLY comes into play under high shear, high pressure applications. It is literally burnished into the metal, and becomes a sacrificial coating that takes the wear from the metal. It literally gets destroyed in the process, and reverts back to it's base components of Zinc and Phosphorus. It is continually deposited and broken down on the cams and rockers of our engines, almost completely eliminating wear on these components.

Modern engines use much lighter spring tension, and are designed to be used with modern oils. Our engines were designed to be used with the oils of yesterday, high ZDDP oils. ZDDP is detrimental to the long teem operation of catalytic converters, hence its removal from modern oils. However, in spite of what many may say, YOU need it in an air cooled 911 engine, and when you buy a 911, you need to pull the valve covers and check the cams and rockers.

Keep in mind that replacing catalytic converters every 100,000 miles or so is WAY CHEAPER than one cam job, after which you will be switching to high ZDDP oil anyway. If you drive like a granny, MAYBE you will not have severe and destructive cam wear. Maybe.

Once you experience extreme cam wear, you might find that massive quantities of metal shavings are all over the inside of your split case, so it is best to deal with cam failure early on. Engines with worn cams will continue to run and drive like normal, until the cams become so worn that they no longer open the valves, so taking off the valve covers is really your only way to determine cam wear on a car you are considering purchasing.

Don't say we didn't warn you.

Daniel Dudley

Since ZDDP is consumed in the operation of our engines, a 3K oil change makes a lot of sense...

Daniel Dudley

Go back and read post # 7. As someone who has experienced cam failure, I can tell you it is no joke, and thousands upon thousands of engines were destroyed by cam failure before anyone figured out the cause.

Now that the cause is well known, and well verified, it is counterproductive to make a claim that it is hogwash. I have made at least 50 posts defending the use of ZDDP in our cars, and I am getting sick of it. But here goes again...

ZDDP is a metallic additive that ONLY comes into play under high shear, high pressure applications. It is literally burnished into the metal, and becomes a sacrificial coating that takes the wear from the metal. It literally gets destroyed in the process, and reverts back to it's base components of Zinc and Phosphorus. It is continually deposited and broken down on the cams and rockers of our engines, almost completely eliminating wear on these components.

Modern engines use much lighter spring tension, and are designed to be used with modern oils. Our engines were designed to be used with the oils of yesterday, high ZDDP oils. ZDDP is detrimental to the long teem operation of catalytic converters, hence its removal from modern oils. However, in spite of what many may say, YOU need it in an air cooled 911 engine, and when you buy a 911, you need to pull the valve covers and check the cams and rockers.

Keep in mind that replacing catalytic converters every 100,000 miles or so is WAY CHEAPER than one cam job, after which you will be switching to high ZDDP oil anyway. If you drive like a granny, MAYBE you will not have severe and destructive cam wear. Maybe.

Once you experience extreme cam wear, you might find that massive quantities of metal shavings are all over the inside of your split case, so it is best to deal with cam failure early on. Engines with worn cams will continue to run and drive like normal, until the cams become so worn that they no longer open the valves, so taking off the valve covers is really your only way to determine cam wear on a car you are considering purchasing.

Don't say we didn't warn you.

michael lang

Several years ago I switched to Brad Penn oil when I started to learn about anti-wear agents for the older engines. My point is not to defend one over the other. There is a performance shop within a few miles from my house that sells the BP so that's what I go with. I have been wanting to do this for some time now but have never gotten around to it...unitl now. I want to do an oil test on the oil that comes out of my car's engine. In order for me to get a more accurate idea of what is happening inside my car's engine, is it better to have the oil sample sent that has gone through a complete usage interval or should I send a sample that is fresh from a track event? Or, does it even matter?

Daniel Dudley

I think you send a sample whenever you change your oil, if you are using it as a monitor.

URG8RB8

Anyone using the VR1 synthetic? Still curious if anyone has tested it as well.

2specs

Just spoke with Dave at Valvoline. First of all he knew about Blackstone's tests and said that Blackstone (must of) tested the oil after use and also knows about the comments posted on forums regarding the test results but they are unable to respond on any of the forums.

He did assure me that the VR-1 does contain 1400 ppm Zinc and 1300 ppm Phosphorous.

I used BP during my last oil change but it is difficult to get up here so looking into the VR-1 which is distributed by NAPA.

2specs

Wow...$7.29/litre ($87.48/case) up here at NAPA. What are you guys paying for this stuff in the U.S.?

TR6

For the record, I've run nothing but Swepco 306 and Brad Penn in my 964 since the engine rebuild a few years ago for that very reason. I was just asking for opinions on the Blackstone article. I found it kind of odd that they published it given the business they are in.