theiceman

Hey Guys

While I do a fair bit of repair and maintanance on my car I profess to knowing NOTHING about the set up or any type of modification,a nd I know guys here are way better at this stuff than me so why not come to the source.

here are my questions.

When I got my car I asked the alignment shop to just set the alignment to factory. Of course they didn't and just zeroed the car out ( no camber at all ) . All things considered it worked out good. Being my first 911 the car actually understeered a fair bit and kept me out of trouble and the tires didn't wear at all unevenly . I want to set it up "properly " now. I know this means different things to different people but does anyone have any recomended set ups for a totaly street driven 911. I do drive a little agresively but i don't pretend to be Fangio by any means. My car is not lowered and i don't realy plan to if that makes any difference. I am looking to dial out the understeer and i know the result could be off throtle oversteer... looking for advice .

Secondly I bought a set of 4 fuchs I want to put on. I really didn't want to spend the extra coin but i got a set of 4 7 by 16s.


Someone suggested I just put on a half inch spacer on the back to push it out a little and it will look fine. Can this be done and are such spacers readily available ? I know I should spend the extra coin for 8s but i already have 3 sets of wheels so I don't want to do that.

Thanks in advance.

Edward

Hey Ice,

Well, as a starting point for a good-handling street-driven 911, try:

Caster: max it out.
Camber: F: -1 degree ; R: -1 to -1.4 degrees.
Toe: 1/16" total toe in

Those who have realy tweaked their cars to perfection might give you more specifics, but this should give you a reasonably "lively" car with decent turn in and less understeer than stock. BUT, I have no idea what the rest of your suspension is? All stock T-bars, shocks, and sways? How are your bushings, especially the rear arm's bushing which is most certainly collapsed and nasty if old.

If I were you, before you do any alignment, I'd definitely lower the car a bit from stock. Easy to do, and lots of "instructions" here and other sites/books. You know as well as anyone here that lowering will improve looks as well as handling. But while you're there, address bushings and shocks. Even if you decide to keep stock T-bars and sways (though I'd definitely go up a bit on both ...cheap/plentiful to find and a no brainer if you're already doing bushings), a simple "freshening up" of bushes and mild upgrades can really transform your car, IMHO. A good alignment aint cheap, so I'd get it all done then align only once.

The 7x16 fuchs are great. Run 205 and 225s and you're good. The rear ones will look a bit "tucked in" the fender well ...it'll bother some, others not at all. Don't run a "spacer" though ...just won't leave you enough threads for the lugnuts. Use an "adaptor" which bolts onto the hub, and the wheel bolts onto the adaptor. Something around a 20mm should do it. Now 8x16 Fuchs are clearly better, but they are stupid expensive IMHO. If you've got the coin, I'd do it, but only after addressing suspension as that is clearly more important. For a street car that you're tooling around as pure funfactor, 8s won't give you much more in grins than 7s with a proper setup. Hope this helps you a bit.

Edward

theiceman

Ah great info thanks Ed ... I will add some more detail ..

All my bushings are in GREAT shape . It is all stock rubber. with no sag or wear at all. Last year I also put in all new sway bar rubber and drop links. All factory . i just did it cause it looked like a neat project.
I also replaced all the shocks and have Bilstein sports all around.

The main reasons I didn't lower it were my other wheels didn't tuck, they were both aftermarket wheel sets . I guess the offset just wasn't perfect. My 16s cut the rubber even without lowering on the front. My 17s were better due to less sidewall flex but i m sure they would cut if I lowered it . I am NOT going to roll the fenders. Just a personal decision guess.

But I think you may be on to something. After throwing on the Fuchs I will get a much better idea. if it all tucks in well I might consider lowering it. That torsion bar reindexing sure looks like a pain in the *** though.
If I lower it it will render my other wheels and tires useless. Not sure i want to do that yet.

Peter Zimmermann

ice: Can you post a side-shot of your car, I want to see where the ride height is at now...

theiceman

will do Pete ..

These are with my 17" cup knock offs. You may not be able to tell much due to lighting.

Auto_Werks 3.6

Ice, if they truely zeroed out all the camber, then you may find that some of your rubbing issues go away when you add some negative camber. The top of the tire will tilt in towards the center of the car, leaving you more room for rubber. You can even cheat a little extra negative camber to help your cause. It's not like you drive the car 35000 kms a year, so tire wear shouldn't be a huge factor. I think you will like the way the car feels if you set it down a bit, and the torsion bars really aren't that bad to deal with... at least compared to a 944.

-Ryan

theiceman

here is one from the other side.

theiceman

Thanks Ryan ..... I was trying to stay off the lowering, slippery slop of performance but i see you guys are determined to drag me down there kicking and screaming .... hmmm.....

Peter Zimmermann

I think that your ride height looks pretty good, the car is certainly not set at 5 mph bumper (USA) height; it looks more like true Euro height. The Sport version Bilsteins will mess with feedback a bit, but I think that a good basic setup would be:
Front: Camber = .5 degree negative
Caster = As close to 6 degrees that you can get keeping both sides equal
Toe = Zero
Rear: Camber = 1 degree negative
Toe = Zero

The Sport Bilsteins are less than ideal with the rest of the suspension stock (doubly so on a Targa), they will affect your corner entry and apex behavior. You will be able to play with tire pressures to make the car less twitchy, start with 31(F)/35(R) and see how you like it!

AJ88CAB

Peter, could you expand on your Bilstein Sport comments...inquiring minds want to know

theiceman

Thanks Pete . I am actually happy with the ride height. no real desires to lower it. I have not found the car particularly twichy, but what do i know. hey maybe an idea would be to have an experienced 911 guy drive it first and see what he thinks..

Edward

Actually, your ride height looks good, Ice. A nice "street height" that offers a good compromise between lower cg than stock but not having to crawl diagonally over driveways, IMHO. I don't know if you did it intentionally, but that is certainly lower than stock SUV rideheight

Good news about all good bushings and shocks ...combined with a good alignment and you'll be rockin! Alignment is all about compromises and preferences. Listen to Pete as he IS the man ...but if you want a bit more aggressive and "lively" feel, I'd personally dial in a bit more camber, but that's just me
And with zero toe as he suggests, you will get better tire life, even with a bit more camber of, say, another -0.5 degrees f and r from his recommendations. But again, while there is certainly such a thing as a "bad" alignment, there is more than one "good" alignment spec.

As for Bilstein Sports, you may just find those a bit over-damped for stock spring rates (stock T-bars I assume?). Sports' damping rates really are better suited for stiffer bars. You can balance it all out by going to heavier Tbars (22/29 is a very nice combo, IMHO, and yields a good street ride while certainly more "aggressive" feeling than stock); or you can sell your Sports (to recoup funds ...they'll sell!) and fit the Bilstein HDs for your mild stock Tbars. Or if you like the ride, ignore me and enjoy as is!


Edward

rnln

Ice,
hope you don't mind I ask the same question in here.

Hi Pete, Edward,
Can you suggest me the alignment spec. on my wide body (modified) 87, lowed, 17x9" front and 17x11.5" rear? Everything else is stock.
Thanks.

Peter Zimmermann

It's hard for me to explain, but when I drive quickly in a stock (suspension) 911, fitted with Sport Bilsteins, I get the impression that the shocks are not working with the torsion bars and contact patches, rather, they're trying to control them.

It probably comes down to driving style, but I don't like the way the car with Sports reacts under braking/initial turn in, or during transition at the apex of a corner. I sense that all of the parts are fighting each other, instead of working together.

During turn in the car might lurch as the weight transfers from rear to front under braking, and that lurch doesn't feel natural, again, the shocks are trying to over-control what the springs should be doing.

The apex discomfort I have is similar, the shocks fight to keep the car from squatting under acceleration until a point is reached where the front and rear of the car no longer work together, they both do their own thing regardless how finely tuned the car's suspension settings are.

In Targas, with their Flexi-Flyer feel (especially pre-'81 cars) this situation is even worse because Targas have a disconnect between the front and rear
just by the car's nature. That, combined with the damping force of Sports, make, for me, a very unsure/uncomfortable car that doesn't quite know how it wants to be driven through a corner.

On the flip side, once a car becomes primarily a track car (like my avatar) and is fitted with oversized everything, monoballs, racing bushings, etc., standard shocks don't supply enough damping, and Sport-valved shocks are mandatory to complete the suspension "package."

To me Sport shocks are like adding 2.2S pistons to a 2.2T engine, without adding S cams, bigger valves and ported heads. The pistons, by themselves, won't bring anything to the party, but as part of a package, the compression boost can make a huge performance difference.

Sport shocks are like those pistons; without the rest of the package, they won't realize their full potential.

theiceman

ni problems RNLN . I am looking forward to getting the wheels on now so I can get the alignment done.