mnmasotto

This story sounds familiar. I started off wanting to upgrade the torsion bars only. I did not want to spend more than a $1000. Well you know how the story goes..... A few posts here and there asking for advice from fellow enthusiasts. Before long, I had a $8000 complete suspension redo. I have no regrets and I cannot recommend Elephant Racing more!!! Chuck was fantastic!

Watch out for the slippery slope of Porsche 911 upgrades.

84_Carrera

Q1: Uh, good question! I have the yellow Bilstein rear shocks, and the green Boge-Insert Bilstein fronts...

Q2: Stock original sways, haven't measured.

Peter Zimmermann

With 205s you're kind of stuck. I was hoping you had 225s and could switch to a 205 for the front. Hmmmm...

TT Oversteer

Fred, that is a beautiful collection of goodies. I always thought that yellow Bilsteins were Sports and green HD but I'm not positive. It would seem to be true in your case though.

The Elephant stuff really is top notch. I'll have to hope for a nice tax return this year! I know I won't be happy with anything less!

TT Oversteer

I guess I could look into different wheels such as BBS or Fikse with different offsets and roll the rear fenders but I'm kind of partial to the iconic fuchs! I'll probably just live with it for now as this is just a street car and later add flares and 8 or 9 in. fuchs. I've got plenty to sort out at this point suspension-wise without getting into the dreaded bodywork!! At least the motor is running excellent right now!

dbryant61

TTO,

Peter has far more experience than most, and you have some good recomendations going on, but if you just want to elimate sag, you can increase the rear bars just proportional to the rear weight increase. If it is a street car, just increase the rear bars proportionally (there is some math involved here with torsion bar rotation proportional to the diameter to the 4th power) to the weight increase, and replace the rubber bushings with new. Poly squeaks, unless you use Polybronze or some equivalent that can be easily greased.

Peter Zimmermann

To further simplify what Don stated, the upgrade w/stock bushings can probably be done for very little expense. The '77 car is already fitted with 20mm (F) and 18mm (R) sway bars, so you're OK there - the same sizes were used through '85 production.

Regarding T-bars, the '77 has 18.8mm (F) and 23mm (R) as original equipment. The 18.8s are good to go because they were original through 3.2 Carrera production. The rears, however, were increased to 24.1mm in '78, and used through '85. That is probably the best way to go for you - new 24.1mm rear T-bars and bushings. I don't think that you want to risk going any bigger until you're ready to do the whole job including correcting the tire situation.

Proper Euro height settings, combined with weight balance and a proper alignment will give you a very nice car to drive until you're ready for the big-buck upgrades. FYI: If you go with stock rear SC/Carrera parts, I strongly recommend that you use Bilstein HDs on all four corners, not Sport versions.

Jay H

I replaced most of the suspension on my '84 Carrera with stock parts including the torsion bars and most of the rubber bushings. I 'downgraded' to Boge shocks as well.

You'd be very surprised as to how damn good these cars are with all new factory components in place on the suspension. A 911 will ride exceptionally well (keeping in mind the suspension was designed in the 60's) and handle very well in stock configuration if everything is set up right.

My car's handling exceeds my driving ability.

Pete helped me make some decisions and his advice and experience are dead on as to what you will experience based on his recommendations.

TT Oversteer

Very interesting comparison Pete. I wonder why Porsche upped the rear T-bar diameter from 24.1 to 25mm for just the last year of the 915 trans equipped Carrera (1986) when it also runs 19mm front bars and the engine weight is unchanged? I also noticed the 930 came stock with 19mm front and 26mm rear bars. How much heavier is the turbo motor than a non-t 3.2? I could understand that the turbo is designed for higher performance limits but then why not up the front bars as well?

As always a wealth of great info from all of you. Thank you! At this point I'm leaning toward either 24.1 or 25 mm rear bars, Bilstein HD's (not sport), stock swaybars f/r, upgrading to WEVO rear swaybar mounts (mine are gone). I'll leave the front as is for now as it has new stock bushings and new struts.

Then I'll tell the kids it's scholarship or trade school instead of college and start building a war chest for real suspension parts.

dbryant61

TT,

You are on the right track. Anecdote:

I could only afford a little at a time as I developed my suspension, and I was driving it on the track (VIR) at DEs regularly. The first thing I did was sway bars - 22 mm Weltmeisters front and rear. In a couple of low-speed, high G-corners, I would turn in, feel the car set, then it would set again but toward the outside rear corners. I am not sure what the physics were, but the outside rear torsion bar was overloaded and it would squat. Two buddies following me said the inside front tire was off the ground 6". We've all seen 911s "tricycle", but this was ridiculous. I was on 22/28 T-bars and solid bushings by the next event.

Peter Zimmermann

Don't forget, '86 was also the production year that the sway bars were up-sized; to 22mm (F) and 21mm (R). It would be interesting to learn what chassis improvements (torsional rigidity, etc.) were made to the '86 cars to accomodate the seemingly minor suspension changes. That said, the '86 cars feel better than any before them, so Porsche did something in addition to S & T-bars.

Regarding engine weight, the 3.2 engine weighs 485 pounds, and the Turbo engine weighs, hold on to your hat, 615 pounds! Regarding handling, I think that Porsche always has dealt with compromises, sometimes tickling upper limits, but only when the car can still be driven by the masses. They couldn't stick 23/31 T-bars, big sway bars, Sport Bilsteins, and racing bushings in a car that a doctor was going to drive back and forth from home to work in Beverly Hills!

KeithC2Turto

If you want to keep a touring ride you migh try putting new rear shocks on first.

You can also get a set of 26mm take off rear torsion bars from a pre 89 930 or a set of 25mm off a 1986 only. Should also add new Neatirx rubber control arm bushings. These bars are about 30% and 15% stiffer than stock in the rear and can be run with the stock front bars.

If it is a narrow car lean more toward 22/28 ( 22/29 with larger rear tires) if you want a track orinted ride. Such a set up is about 90% stiffer in front and 80% stiffer in back than stock (+110% stiffer for 29's).

Please verify the above with the experts.

dbryant61

Keith,

What does tire size have to do with T-bar size?

KeithC2Turto

I suspect if you have wider rear tires they should have a higher potental to hold better.

Thus, if you have skinny tires or have proportionately increased the rear weight, it might be better to lean toward the softer rear spring with in a range.

22 fronts seem fit righ between 28 & 29 rear springs as to percentage of gain over stock spring rates so might as well lean toward the softer ones to the benifit to rear traction.

Of cource there are other conciderations like sway bar sizes and how the car is going to be used.

However, I defer to the experts.

dbryant61

Gotcha. I ran 22/28 in my SC for a while. Good compromise set-up