Caveat Emptor, not all are a Steve, Peter, Mayo, or Jake Raby
12-22-2008, 02:16 AM
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Caveat Emptor, not all are a Steve, Peter, Mayo, or Jake Raby
Caveat Emptor, not all are a Steve, Peter, Mayo, or Jake Raby
This is a spinoff of a running thread. It is posted separately to address a much broader issue. I request the thread boss let this run separately so that maybe we can construct a mini-book (like the shirt pocket tech book that Porsche has for repair) regarding the buying, selling, and purchase of services in today’s World of internet accessibility.
Under the doctrine of caveat emptor, the buyer could not recover from the seller for defects on the property that rendered the property unfit for ordinary purposes. The only exception was if the seller actively concealed latent defects. The modern trend in the US, however, is one of the Implied Warranty of Fitness that applies only to the sale of new residential housing by a builder-seller and the rule of Caveat Emptor applies to all other sale situations (i.e. homeowner to buyer).[2] Many other jurisdictions have provisions similar to this.
Before statutory law, the buyer had no warranty of the quality of goods. In many jurisdictions, the law now requires that goods must be of "merchantable quality". However, this implied warranty can be difficult to enforce, and may not apply to all products. Hence, buyers are still advised to be cautious.
So, as we have seen in threads, there are car dealers who should be avoided; there are other businesses that may be difficult to deal with. I personally was saved from what might have been a money disaster by reading HERE about an engine builder that had had some product problems. The Carrera was in Denver and had the cage and all the neat bells and whistles, and the price was really right. The engine had some running problems since rebuild. Alerted by what I had read, I safely avoided the deal.
I also use Miata and 4runner forums, I only wish they were what we have here. We live in a wealth of invaluable, information availability, right here. WITH THAT I ASK A QUESTION.
Because I have free access here that I literally could not afford to buy, (relating TO--- who, how, what and where), If used properly, MOST OF THE PROBLEMATIC SITUATIONS COULD BE AVOIDED.
Some difficulity to access is that there is no cross reference to prior problem/solutions, vendor references, parts opinions, etc. So many of the same questions are asked again and again, creating some non-answers. Unique questions like a pre buy, require a specific answer and seem to usually get them.
IF you will follow me on this--- qualifying someone over the phone is not easy and over the net difficult. A reference is always best if you can get one. If you take the time. I have done deals with planes, boats, cars, and parts. I do get suckered every now and then. However, if you have a reference stick, you can avoid some of the snake bites.
As stated, not all are Steve or Peter. And one of the points of this post.--- A few weeks back I posted about Jake Raby, a person of known skills. One thing that I did not quote from the conversation that I had with Raby is this bit of wisdom and business concept.
Simi-quote from Raby re 996:: ‘We can not afford an engine failure, now one. That would cost me a million dollars.” My response was::: law suites are crazy in today’s world. His response was::: ‘ no, I mean my reputation”.
maybe--------
IF we play up the GOOD guys, we can avoid the others, not to say the others do not need to be known and defined.
so to you that are a bunch smarter than I ever hope to be, how is it done??
This is a spinoff of a running thread. It is posted separately to address a much broader issue. I request the thread boss let this run separately so that maybe we can construct a mini-book (like the shirt pocket tech book that Porsche has for repair) regarding the buying, selling, and purchase of services in today’s World of internet accessibility.
Under the doctrine of caveat emptor, the buyer could not recover from the seller for defects on the property that rendered the property unfit for ordinary purposes. The only exception was if the seller actively concealed latent defects. The modern trend in the US, however, is one of the Implied Warranty of Fitness that applies only to the sale of new residential housing by a builder-seller and the rule of Caveat Emptor applies to all other sale situations (i.e. homeowner to buyer).[2] Many other jurisdictions have provisions similar to this.
Before statutory law, the buyer had no warranty of the quality of goods. In many jurisdictions, the law now requires that goods must be of "merchantable quality". However, this implied warranty can be difficult to enforce, and may not apply to all products. Hence, buyers are still advised to be cautious.
So, as we have seen in threads, there are car dealers who should be avoided; there are other businesses that may be difficult to deal with. I personally was saved from what might have been a money disaster by reading HERE about an engine builder that had had some product problems. The Carrera was in Denver and had the cage and all the neat bells and whistles, and the price was really right. The engine had some running problems since rebuild. Alerted by what I had read, I safely avoided the deal.
I also use Miata and 4runner forums, I only wish they were what we have here. We live in a wealth of invaluable, information availability, right here. WITH THAT I ASK A QUESTION.
Because I have free access here that I literally could not afford to buy, (relating TO--- who, how, what and where), If used properly, MOST OF THE PROBLEMATIC SITUATIONS COULD BE AVOIDED.
Some difficulity to access is that there is no cross reference to prior problem/solutions, vendor references, parts opinions, etc. So many of the same questions are asked again and again, creating some non-answers. Unique questions like a pre buy, require a specific answer and seem to usually get them.
IF you will follow me on this--- qualifying someone over the phone is not easy and over the net difficult. A reference is always best if you can get one. If you take the time. I have done deals with planes, boats, cars, and parts. I do get suckered every now and then. However, if you have a reference stick, you can avoid some of the snake bites.
As stated, not all are Steve or Peter. And one of the points of this post.--- A few weeks back I posted about Jake Raby, a person of known skills. One thing that I did not quote from the conversation that I had with Raby is this bit of wisdom and business concept.
Simi-quote from Raby re 996:: ‘We can not afford an engine failure, now one. That would cost me a million dollars.” My response was::: law suites are crazy in today’s world. His response was::: ‘ no, I mean my reputation”.
maybe--------
IF we play up the GOOD guys, we can avoid the others, not to say the others do not need to be known and defined.
so to you that are a bunch smarter than I ever hope to be, how is it done??
12-22-2008, 06:21 AM
#2
I think it is important to ask about dealers on this and other forums.
I have not made it my business to out certain dealers, but I will speak up if someone asks. I have also been known to speak up in favor of certain cars that I have driven and know to be good cars.
BTW, the practice of ''horse trading'' has had a reputation for corruption since ancient times. Aesop has a fable about how the Gods were passing out qualities to the tradesmen, but they were loathe to pass out dishonesty, so they wound up giving it all to the horse traders, as they were at the end of the line.
Of course it was the Romans who coined the phrase Caveat Emptor, or buyer beware. Still excellent advice to this day. Anyone know the Latin for keep the shiny side up ?
I have not made it my business to out certain dealers, but I will speak up if someone asks. I have also been known to speak up in favor of certain cars that I have driven and know to be good cars.
BTW, the practice of ''horse trading'' has had a reputation for corruption since ancient times. Aesop has a fable about how the Gods were passing out qualities to the tradesmen, but they were loathe to pass out dishonesty, so they wound up giving it all to the horse traders, as they were at the end of the line.
Of course it was the Romans who coined the phrase Caveat Emptor, or buyer beware. Still excellent advice to this day. Anyone know the Latin for keep the shiny side up ?
12-22-2008, 11:39 AM
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I as well, and I know of a couple of Carreras for sale right now but I can only think of one for sale right now that has running issues, and those issues are clearly stated in the fellows ad.
EDIT: I am also curious what running issues there were? And why do you feel you safely avoided the deal? Has someone else since bought the car and the engine let go? Was the seller and BTW are we talking individual selling? Or a shop/dealer? Where was the Carrera advertised? There are ALWAYS dodgy 911s around, with bad head studs or claimed rebuilds or "minor" oil leaks which are why PPI inspections are so important to have done, and cars with "issues" are not always something to pass on ifthe rest of the car is sound.
EDIT: I am also curious what running issues there were? And why do you feel you safely avoided the deal? Has someone else since bought the car and the engine let go? Was the seller and BTW are we talking individual selling? Or a shop/dealer? Where was the Carrera advertised? There are ALWAYS dodgy 911s around, with bad head studs or claimed rebuilds or "minor" oil leaks which are why PPI inspections are so important to have done, and cars with "issues" are not always something to pass on ifthe rest of the car is sound.
Last edited by DWalker; 12-22-2008 at 11:59 AM.
12-23-2008, 11:15 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
No amount of money can puchase a reputation. I started building mine at age 13 when I sold my first engine to a paying customer and since then can count on one hand how many "issues" I have had woth customers or their engines and thats a great accomplishment considering that 20% of today's buying public are impossible to please.
The Internet (when used correctly) is a powerful tool for the buyer, but can be disasterous for the Vendor and sometimes the damage is inflicted by those who don't tell the truth about their experiences, and thats far from fair to the Vendor.
Always do your homework and when you talk to a potential Vendor on the phone really listen to wht they say and how they say it.... I don't mean to listen to their sales pitches, listen to the Enthusiasm and pride in their voice- lots can be understod by paying attention to how people react to questions, not the answers they give to those questions.
Finding people in the automotive world that are direct and up front is getting more difficult. I belong to that breed and can say that today people get pissy if you are blunt and tell them the reality of things instead of telling them what they want to hear... Its sad that people who are spending real money on components, cars and engines would rather deal with someone that tells them what they want to hear, rather than what they NEED to hear.. Lots of people think I am an *** for responding so directly, they don't realize how much of a service I am extending to them for being painfully honest.
I do my best to give those who call or email us for info the answers to their questions without sales pitches, a mere explanation of what we do, how we do it and how it works. I then allow them to make their own decisions without any pressure at all. Thats the way I want to be treated, so I extend it.
The Internet (when used correctly) is a powerful tool for the buyer, but can be disasterous for the Vendor and sometimes the damage is inflicted by those who don't tell the truth about their experiences, and thats far from fair to the Vendor.
Always do your homework and when you talk to a potential Vendor on the phone really listen to wht they say and how they say it.... I don't mean to listen to their sales pitches, listen to the Enthusiasm and pride in their voice- lots can be understod by paying attention to how people react to questions, not the answers they give to those questions.
Finding people in the automotive world that are direct and up front is getting more difficult. I belong to that breed and can say that today people get pissy if you are blunt and tell them the reality of things instead of telling them what they want to hear... Its sad that people who are spending real money on components, cars and engines would rather deal with someone that tells them what they want to hear, rather than what they NEED to hear.. Lots of people think I am an *** for responding so directly, they don't realize how much of a service I am extending to them for being painfully honest.
I do my best to give those who call or email us for info the answers to their questions without sales pitches, a mere explanation of what we do, how we do it and how it works. I then allow them to make their own decisions without any pressure at all. Thats the way I want to be treated, so I extend it.
12-23-2008, 12:25 PM
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There is actually the beginnings of a write up on how to choose a shop at crankwalk.net
The internet BTW is a really aweful tool to try and use to find a good shop. It is all too easy for a shop to use the internet to bolster thier own image or ruin a competing shops. The relative anonymity and percieved lack of accountability leads many to use the internet as a marketing tool not only to further thier shop, but to discredit others. My own opinion is that a shop that has never admitted to making mistakes is the one to avoid. That immediately tells me that they would rather sweep things under the rug and hush up any complaints than admit that they are human, have made mistakes, and manned up and took care fo them. On the other hand, a shop that freely admits that while they do the best they possibly can mistakes and failures can and do happen says a lot to me. Its how they address those mistakes that is important. Hiding or outright lying about "issues" is a sure sign that the shop you are dealing with is simply not honest. For example- There is a local shop that pretty much denies that they have ever had an engine failure that was thier fault, and that thier machine work, assembly, and installations are always perfect, and that any failures are due to other things. I know for a fact they told a customer whos new engine had broken the crank that the clutch had failed, and AFAIK the customer to this day does not know the truth. On the other hand, they very often go out of thier way to point out the mistakes of other shops, and if you are not doing it "thier way" in regards to engine/transmission building, tuning, etc. then you are simply an idiot or dealing with an idiot shop- they are the best and are not afraid to tell you so themselves.
So then....The important thing is to find a shop that fits you and is capable of meeting your goals. When I get a call from a prospective client I ALWAYS have them come down to the shop, meet me and my guys, look around the shop, see the work we do in progress, and discuss thier project in person. I do this because there are some people I am not able to do business with, and who should not do business with me, and I prefer to figure that out before we become enemies.
And now as an example of the BS that surrounds even the highest levels of this industry:
I recently found out that a local race team has been screwed out of about $3 million by seemingly very reputable race shop. I actually have met the fellow in question, and was very surprised to hear about this situation. Apparently the fellow used the money to further his own shop and turned out a very very poor racing car, especially considering the amount of $$ spent. This fellow has worked (and I believe still does work) for one of the leading names in professional Porsche racing, has an "excellent" reputation in club and vintage racing, and yet now it is hard to tell how much of that reputation is fabricated and how much of it is real. I honestly cannot mention any details, as there is very likely legal action coming, but it is a very well known name in Porsche and racing circles.
The internet BTW is a really aweful tool to try and use to find a good shop. It is all too easy for a shop to use the internet to bolster thier own image or ruin a competing shops. The relative anonymity and percieved lack of accountability leads many to use the internet as a marketing tool not only to further thier shop, but to discredit others. My own opinion is that a shop that has never admitted to making mistakes is the one to avoid. That immediately tells me that they would rather sweep things under the rug and hush up any complaints than admit that they are human, have made mistakes, and manned up and took care fo them. On the other hand, a shop that freely admits that while they do the best they possibly can mistakes and failures can and do happen says a lot to me. Its how they address those mistakes that is important. Hiding or outright lying about "issues" is a sure sign that the shop you are dealing with is simply not honest. For example- There is a local shop that pretty much denies that they have ever had an engine failure that was thier fault, and that thier machine work, assembly, and installations are always perfect, and that any failures are due to other things. I know for a fact they told a customer whos new engine had broken the crank that the clutch had failed, and AFAIK the customer to this day does not know the truth. On the other hand, they very often go out of thier way to point out the mistakes of other shops, and if you are not doing it "thier way" in regards to engine/transmission building, tuning, etc. then you are simply an idiot or dealing with an idiot shop- they are the best and are not afraid to tell you so themselves.
So then....The important thing is to find a shop that fits you and is capable of meeting your goals. When I get a call from a prospective client I ALWAYS have them come down to the shop, meet me and my guys, look around the shop, see the work we do in progress, and discuss thier project in person. I do this because there are some people I am not able to do business with, and who should not do business with me, and I prefer to figure that out before we become enemies.
And now as an example of the BS that surrounds even the highest levels of this industry:
I recently found out that a local race team has been screwed out of about $3 million by seemingly very reputable race shop. I actually have met the fellow in question, and was very surprised to hear about this situation. Apparently the fellow used the money to further his own shop and turned out a very very poor racing car, especially considering the amount of $$ spent. This fellow has worked (and I believe still does work) for one of the leading names in professional Porsche racing, has an "excellent" reputation in club and vintage racing, and yet now it is hard to tell how much of that reputation is fabricated and how much of it is real. I honestly cannot mention any details, as there is very likely legal action coming, but it is a very well known name in Porsche and racing circles.
