wpriller

Just recently had my engine rebuilt on a 75 911S, where I had already replaced the casing. I had an oil leak after the engine rebuild and my mechanic stated that he needed to replace an o ring. This passed weekend he supposely replaced the o ring and torque the heads down. I drove the car from Melrose, Florida to Tampa and back to Gainesville, Fl. My brother follow me to make sure that my car wasn't smoking or throwing oil. Car was smoking at rest, but was not throwing oil. I had to drive the car back to Atlanta and so I called my mechanic to address the smoking issue. He informed me that the oil will eventually burn off the heat exchangers and I will not have that issue. The following morning I started my car up and as I accelerated, I noticed a popping sound, which I suspected a head stud. I took the car directly to my mechanic, and he agreed it was a head stud. During the rebuilt I ask my mechanic several times was he able to torque the heads down without any problems, which he stated yes. He also informed me that the casing I brought looked like someone had already did the steel inserts. My mechanic was aware of the headstuds issue with the 75's. My question is 1. should I have had an oil leak after a recent rebuild, 2. Should my mechanic actually been able to see if the car needed the steel inserts during the rebuild and gone ahead and did the steel inserts. He is now telling me that the casing needs to go all the way down and split, and sent out to California to have the steel inserts applied, which will cost me additional $1000 not including the labor. I've owned this car for 28yrs, and I told my mechanic that if this was going to be a costly project, I didn't want to put the car back together. He said that the car wasn't in bad shape and that it would be worth while to do. At this point I have more money in the car than what the car is worth. My question is should my mechanic be charging me labor on another rebuild, and I just recently got the car from him about a month ago from the first rebuild. I would just like to get some opinions on this matter.

pjc

Ouch!!

Tricky one heh!

The simply answer is that yes I believe a mechanic should be able to tell if inserts were fitted - it has been known for the insert to pull out of course and in such a case it is obvious. Surely as part of the rebuild the head studs were replaced anyway and then its obvious also?

I don't see these engines as a 'cheap rebuild' - had mine done a couple of years ago including shuffle-pinning the case (was yours done?), decking, oilway mod, inserts + new studs etc. Hopefully now fit for 150K+ Not that that information helps you I'm afraid.

Maybe a simple solution is to ask him who he intends to send the case to - contact them and ask how you would know the inserts were fitted after the case was done - once you have this information I think you should be in a position to go back to your wrench and tell him he should have been aware because......

PJC

wpriller

My car had been sitting for a # of years in my driveway, and I actually thought about parting it out. My brother convince me to have his mechanic look at the car to see if it was worth while putting it back together. Since it was a California car the body wasn't in bad shape. My brother's mechanic was a retired Service Manager from a Porsche Dealership in Florida. So I had the car transported down to Florida, and on the mechanics recommendation he stated the car was worth putting back together. I had the car painted, seats re-upholster new headliner, rear seats repacked, sunvisors done, SSI heat exchangers, Updated tensioners, UTI pressure kit, new rocker arms and cam shafts. So when he had the engine down, with the car that old, should he had automatically inspected for steel inserts, and if they weren't installed should he have installed them?

GMS

All 2.7 "rebuilds" include case machining and case saver installation.
If that is not done, leaks start within 2000 miles.

wpriller

So this step should of been included before re-assembly? In a earlier post I asked the question if a mechanic can actually see if steel inserts had been installed. I brought the casing used from a 1977 911S, over 10 years ago when I had the engine rebuilt before. So with the casing being that old and him being an experience Porsche mechanic, should he had automatically had the casing machined and case saver installation done? I did ask him when he had the engine down the condition of the casing and he stated that it was okay because it looked like someone had already did the steel inserts and he was able to torque the heads down.

GMS

This is when it gets to the "he said" and "he said" situation.
If the case has not been machined and no documentation of when it was done and who did it, then then it needs doing.

The engine case is at least 33 years old, it needs checking first.

Daniel Dudley

If you don't want to pony up, leave it parked or sell it. If you decide to fix it, spend the money to do it right. Use a well known mechanic, and stop screwing around.

If you want cheap, Miatas are very nice sportscars, and can be made to go very fast. A really good one, already built up, can be had for less than you will have to spend to make your car right.

People restore cars out of love, and not for any other reason, or with any hope of getting a return. I am not feeling the love. As someone who has BTDT, I am advising you to quit now. Sell the car to someone who will relish the prospect of making it better than new.

If you really want a Porsche, often times good ones can be had for little more than bad ones. Keeping a good one up is much easier than making a bad one good. It still costs, but you will have the pleasure of having a really nice car to drive.

So ask yourself, can I afford this, and am I willing to afford this ? Do or not do. Do not try.

wpriller

The issue was before I started this project, I told the mechanic if it was going to be an expensive job that I didn't want to take the project on. The mechanic was recommended to me, and I was told he was one the best Porsche mechanics in Florida. I had a chance to meet him when he was the Service Manager @ All Pro in Ocala. I live in the Atlanta area and it was recommended that I send my car down to Florida to see if it was worth while putting it back together. I was told that the car wasn't in bad shape and could be done for a certain amount, which I budget for. It's not that I couldn't afford to do it, but if I'm quoted a price, that's what I expect to pay. I had already gone over budget, more than what the car is worth and I realized this. My mechanic was aware of the issues that the 2.7 had, and if it was something that should of been done in the process of rebuilding the engine, it should of been done. Like I said before, I owned the car for 28yrs with no interest of doing anything to it, but getting it out of my driveway. If I had to sell it or part it out, it didn't make a difference; I consider looking @ another car, I had just sold a 1967 Sunbeam Tiger that was left to me by my father when he passed. I didn't want to invest the money in the Tiger because their was know one in the Atlanta area that was doing restoration on Tigers. So, when I was asked to send my 911 down to Florida to have it evaluated, that's what I did. I decided to take on the project on the recommendation of the mechanic. He was aware that I had a budget and if it was going to be an expensive project, all he had to do is recommend that I buy another car, which wouldn't of been an issue. When I was told that the project was going to be over budget, I went ahead and put the money out. I just wanted my car fixed correctly, so I can enjoy driving it, and know I got a good return on the money I invested.

Brett San Diego

Sorry to hear of your delimma. It seems to me that you simply have to start over, probably with a new mechanic unless you still trust this guy. I'm not quite sure where you're headed with your information gathering... planning on calling a lawyer? I would say that your car should not leak oil that soon after a rebuild if it was done right. But, where is the leak from? Is it from an area where new parts were used and apparently installed incorrectly... or is it from re-using an old part? It is true that oil on a heat exhanger may smoke for quite a while, but have you confirmed that there is in fact oil on the heat exchanger?

Although, I've never seen a case with time certs or case savers or helicoils installed, I can't imagine that they aren't visible when installed. They're inserted into the original stud holes (or drilled out stud holes?), and the studs are then screwed into them. Nothing covers them. Have you tried google images? There must be pics on the web somewhere.

good luck,
Brett

wpriller

Thanks Brett, I'm in the process of talking to my mechanic now to see if this situation can be resolved. He wants to send the casing out to Calif. for machining and time inserts installed, which he told me would cost $1000. I told him that I would pay the $1000, but I will not pay for labor again. If he decides he doesn't want to do it, then I will cut my losses and consider selling the car, or just leave it parked in my garage.

Brett San Diego

Re-reading your original post, I guess the case wasn't split for this latest rebuild. In that case, I don't think you would be able to see whether there were any thread reinforcements in the case bolts. For the head studs (separate issue), they will be clearly visible... Seems these are two different issues that you haven't clearly separated.

1. Whether the case bolts were reinforced like your mechanic said they were. If he is wrong, and your current leak problems likely arise from the case not being prepared properly, I'd say you got a bum rebuild, and the mechanic needs to do it right. I would have to agree with the mechanic that the case work is on your nickel, but I agree with you that the labor is his to eat for not doing it right the first time.

2. Pulled head stud. Mechanic should fix on his nickel.

Brett

jakeflyer

We solved the 911s problem by selling it and getting a 911sc. However, let me tell you about the decision process. I was able to find 2 spare 911s engines so I knew I had enough spare parts to build one good engine. I then pulled the original engine down and looked at the damage done by the loose head studs. I then looked at the 2 choices of inserts that go into the case for the head studs. After looking at the pricing of new pistons and cyls ($3000) and other parts, I took the cases to Ollies in Santa Ana California. I was fortunate to talk to George a couple of times and gained a multi-thoudands of dollars education. There are 3 different types of case savers. small, medium and large. Ollies uses the large because they have seen the others pull out. with the sheet metal off, one should be able to see if the inserts have been installed, however, it may be difficult to see if they are pulled. I would suggest that
1. You look at an engine with inserts in it to understand what it is that you are dealing with.
2. Call George at Ollies and tell him what your situation is and what he suggests what you will require based upon what he has seen in the past-- and the cost.

If you PM me I can call you or you can call me and I can go thru the details of what I learned. These cases are a bitch to deal with due to the soft metal and other design flaws by Porsche. I have built a number of engines of various types and was skeptical about all the bad stuff I had heard about the S engine. I now understand. Decked, pinned etc are words that are expensive and are required to do it right.

abe

Having an old car is like a relationship with a woman. Most of the time things are good, happy, and there is love. You can just feel it. Sometimes things get tough, ugly, and costly both financially and emotionally. But when the love is no longer there and the passion is gone and everytime you get together its not the same and its not worth it anymore....then maybe its time to move on and let someone else take care of that "high maintaince problem". If you are still in love, and the time spent is well spent, you just cant live without her, and both enjoy each others company as a match made on earth...then stick out till death do you part. You might need a counsellor..or in this case a mechanic, to let you know how wonderful she is and that all is not lost. Maybe you need an awaking of that long lost feeling. Don't give up so soon after coming such a long way.....the departure may also be emotionally costly. You don't want regrets 10 years from now...what if I tried a little harder, we might still be together.
BTW I am 49 and with my wife for 29 years....I also keep my cars forever.
Thought for the day.
abe

wpriller

Thanks, words well spoken

J richard

Any air cooled pcar mechanic worth his salt would know about the issues associated with the 2.7 case/head stud issue. The only way to be 100% sure not to have head studs pull is to have the time certs installed which involves splitting the case, installing the inserts and then re-machining the cylinder spigots because they will be deformed due to the installation of the certs. You can easily tell if they are installed even with the engine in the car with some contortions, you can see the steel insert around the stud where it goes into the case. If they were installed in the case you had replaced, then it would have been a fair assumption by your mechanic that you could top end the engine and not split the case. If you have a time cert pulling out of the case then I think you had some assembly issue or a real problem with the case, that would be a big chunk of metal pulling out of the case. If on the other hand someone only put in a thread saver type insert, thats a gamble, most of those don't hold and he should of made you aware of that.

Even in cars with pulled studs without inserts you can sometimes retorque them, but they will just pull out eventually. On the positive side once a 2.7 is properly done, they are great cars, (without the air injection) they feel much more like the early cars with the added benefit of a bigger motor...