997for40

what do you expect to pay for an early 80's 911 w/ M491 option? I know these are rare cars but want to know current prices or previous sales.
Was this option also offered when they switched to the G50's?

thanks

Peter Zimmermann

Thank the economy for putting all of this stuff into a tailspin. If you can find a price guide that was written 6 weeks ago it'll probably already be out of date. Guides such as "carsthatmatter.com" or the one that Sports Car Market magazine generates are decent starting points, but I'm told that the market has not been strong for at least the last three months.

Be fortunate that you can buy one, and if you find a good one its owner will be (1) Anxious to sell it, or (2) Have to sell it, or (3) Testing the waters. The amount that you write the check for, and I'm not being a smart *** here, is what the car is worth - to you.

Rare car or not, any M491 that you look at must have a full-blown PPI, hopefully with a technician who can also determine if the car is a legitimate Turbo-Look. Good luck!

997for40

n any p-car purchase a detailed PPI is a must.. i strongly agree. as far as authenticity, option listed on the sticker states M491. unless it was reproduced (i doubt it)

Does anybody know how many of these optioned cars ever produced?

Thanks for the advice Pete

shaynes

I do offer the viewpoint that a shaky market will force fixed asset investors back into Real Estate and also into art, collector cars, etc... so hang on, on that statement the market has screwed car prices... on a chevy malibu yes, but no necc the collector porsche market.

There is an M491 cab 89 on ebay right now with under 9k miles, already at 47500, and the car sold to its previous owner for 58k...

Just offering a different viewpoint, nothing more.

Peter Zimmermann

I get my P-car resale info from market experts, and they are witnessing the first real tailing-off in the P-car market in years. An acquaintance told me a couple of days ago that his drop-top 356, worth about $60K in the spring of this year would have trouble bringing $40K today .

Regarding how many M491 cars were built is a subject for great debate. Plenty people claim to know, unverified letters have been circulated, but because the cars don't have their own VIN series there is no way to know - only educated guesses count!

Peter Zimmermann

Here is a sneak-peek at a chapter that I've written (not in final form) for a future book...please consider this copyrighted material.

Ah, the mystery of it all…

The Turbo-Look 3.2 liter Carrera.

First I want to list a couple of publications that I believe to be noteworthy, and have their rightful place in the history of Porsche. They are:

1. "Moments" by Peter Vann
Published by: Praetor & Rindlisbacher Verlagsgesellschaft mbH
Co-published by: Public Relations and Press Dept., Dr. Ing. H.c. F. Porsche AG
Moments is the “Official Porsche 50th Anniversary Book”, 1948 – 1998
2. "Porsche 911 – Forever Young" by Tobias Aichele
English language edition published by: Beeman Jorgensen, Inc., 1995

Mr. Aichele has restored a 1965 911, which has spent many years on display at the Porsche Museum, and spent time as the director of Porsche’s domestic (German) press department.

Peter Vann, a photographer, used a number of written contributions in order to produce his amazing book, Moments. Of course, when one tries to squeeze the vast history of an automobile into a few more than 200 pages many details must go unused. In this book it is written that, “Customers had frequently expressed a desire to buy the basic models with the same flared fenders and wider tires as on the Turbo, and starting in the 1985 model year their wish was granted.”

Now, taking this statement as-is, it would seem that the writer forgot about the 1984 Turbo-Look coupe. However, the remainder of the text of the same paragraph continues with the discussion of only 3.3 liter Turbo Targas and Turbo Cabriolets one can easily assume that the author was discussing only Turbo-Look Targas and Cabs being introduced in 1985. Unfortunately, because of the way records were kept, and the use of VINs, the only production numbers given in this publication are: “By 1989, 299 Turbo Targas and no fewer than 1642 Turbo Cabriolets had been made and sold.” No fewer than…hmmmmm. No mention was made regarding total production numbers of Turbo-Look models.

Tobias Aichele, on the other hand, delved deeper into production numbers and details. Armed with factory memos and a variety of documents, he too failed to totally unravel the Turbo-Look mystery. In his chapter titled “Hats Off” he presents the fascinating tale of how the Targa and Cabriolet came to be, and in the body of the text wrote, “From the 1985 model year, the Targa and cabriolet were even offered in the wide-body ‘Turbo-Look,’ but without the Turbo rear wing.” Later in the book, in the year-to-year section, Mr. Aichele states, in the 1984 text, that the “911 Carrera Coupe (was) available in Turbo Look.” Not until his 1985 section is the following mentioned: “The Turbo Look 911 Carrera is also available with Targa and Cabriolet bodywork.” Mr. Aichele moves on to a VIN analysis, as well as a comprehensive list of total production units built in every year from 1963-1993. Unfortunately, no distinction for M 491 cars is drawn; those VINs simply disappeared inside of either the Carrera or Turbo numbers.

The same disappearing act occurs in Porsche’s own Technical Specification (Spec) book, specifically the one that covers 1984-1987. A VIN study reveals identification of Coupes, Targas and Cabriolets for different markets (RoW, Japan, Canada, USA, etc.), but there is no specific VIN documentation for a Turbo-Look model, whatever its bodywork might be. I found one listing, under 1984 Carrera information, not Turbo, that 1984 Turbo-Look cars got different 915 transmissions (RoW – 915/69 and USA/Japan – 915/70), as opposed to the 915/67 (regular RoW Carrera) and the 915/68 (regular USA/Japan Carrera).

Even Up-Fixin' lets us down. We must remember, in fairness to that publication, the articles are re-prints of work done when memories were fresh and everyone knew what was going on. Well, as those works are read today, many times holes, where explanations would be invaluable, exist. In Volume 6 it’s written that, “For the 1984 model year, a limited number of Carreras can be equipped with the new 930 performance body and chassis option. This option consists of all of the 930 body and chassis features including : large front and rear spoilers, wider 16” wheels, 917-type brake calipers and cross-drilled rotors.” Unfortunately, no mention was made that the option was only available on coupes, or that rumor had it that two Cabriolets had also been built. Now we’ll move to Volume 7, and read the “New from Porsche in 1986” chapter. Within the text it is written that, “The 911 Carrera can again be specially ordered with 911 Turbo bodywork in coupe, Targa and cabriolet configurations.” The keyword in that sentence is “again,” which means that the same cars could have also been ordered in 1985. What about 1985, and what was new? I can find no such discussion. More information might be found in the hundreds of pages of technical Q & A, but I have not had success.

And now we have “The Letter.” No writer’s name, no date, no recipient, no close and no signature. In other words, absolutely no way to prove that it’s legitimate, other than a letterhead that could have been easily created by someone other than Porsche.

Where does this get us? Not far enough. The Turbo-Look Carreras are shrouded in a production mystery where production facts may never see the light of day.

"The Letter" can be found at this thread:https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...uction+numbers

Enjoy!

cal44

My neighbor bought one two years years ago for 17K with 130K miles. I have seen folks trying to sell theirs either on Ebay or through other sorces for anything between 25K into the 50K area. Funny thing is that with all the turbo big brakes and other fancy items that came with these 491 cars turns out the the stock 911 was faster.......according to the road tests. Go figure.

Peter Zimmermann

cal: You're correct, the aero of the wide car with the small engine certainly impacted performance.

I learned a painful lesson when I did the wide body conversion to my PCA Club Racer (my avatar). Instead of gaining the half second that I hoped for in lap times at Willow Springs Raceway, I lost one second! What a bummer! I did everything that I could aero-wise to make the car (1981 SC) get through the air cleaner, and all that the extra work and cost netted me was...zero. I was finally able to equal my best lap times when the car was narrow body, but the only consolation was that the car was easier to drive as a wide body.

M491

There is no "early 80s" M491, it came out in 84 so it's more of a mid 80s thing.

Yes, it was offered all the way through the G50 years.

Market for Porsches is definitely soft right now, BUT, I think a low mileage, all stock and original M491 can still "bring all the money."

No one is 100% sure how many were made, but it wasn't tens of thousands, for sure. A lot of people like them because of their unique history, small production number, and great, classic 80s widebody look.

For many, not having the turbo'd engine is a plus - these cars are now old enough that people just like to have them to collect, tinker with and cruise on a nice Saturday.

There have been sales in the past few months in the 40s for G50 cars. But these are exceptional, low mileage original cars.

I think the market is down for "driver" 491s, i.e., 90K+ miles, some modifications, paint work, etc.

theiceman

hey we are privy to book readings before release.. I feel so special .. hey Pete you gonna get Oprah to talk about your book in her bok club ? :-)

racer

I've seen prices range from $16K-35K depending on condition of course, mileage, Style (coupe, cab or targa).

I believe the original option (M491) cost around $10K when bought new.

Yes. It was an option from 1984-1989.