Shocks and Torsion Bar Upgrade
12-28-2006, 02:18 AM
#16
Race Car
Originally Posted by arbeitm
Thanks for all the advice. Racer...not do any upgrades???...that is blasphemous. Actually I have been contemplating the same thing. I did want to get a couple of autoxes under my belt with everything stock just to get a feel of how the car is to start. This way I can get an idea if my upgrades are exactly what I want. I doubt I'm patient enough as you to leave it that way for 1-2 seasons.
I have a few months to think about it. I just wanted to start collecting information now.
I have a few months to think about it. I just wanted to start collecting information now.
12-28-2006, 10:31 AM
#18
Race Car
Originally Posted by arbeitm
Still have the wrong picture in your avatar?
I know, haven't taken new ones yet. Maybe today. I'm off from work.
12-28-2006, 10:46 AM
#19
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Keeping the car fun is a great idea. How good are the roads that you will be driving on? Here in Maryland the roads are as smooth as I have seen anywhere and certainly smoother then Summit Point.
22/28 and Bilstein Sports worked for me for 6 years. Car was driven long miles over the road to get to Mid Ohio, Watkins Glen, VIR, etc. A pleasant ride and decent handling. That said - I switched to 21/31 (with the same shocks) and Smart Racing sway bars and I still think it has a decent ride and I still drove the car to the same remote (to me) tracks. Although I believe that it could go stiffer and the 80,000 mile shocks will be either revalved or upgraded to Fox Adjustable.
For what its worth - it appears that you are working on your SC and assuming you have not changed the shocks before, they are definitely due for a change if they are the original shocks. You might do that and the bushings before you change anything else.
As for bushings, the poly bronze bushings, although near solid compared to the original rubber, provide a much improved ride. The suspension pivots freely with no binding and no noise compared to some of the intermediate solutions. This would be pricey if you did not do the work yourself. Changing T-bars will be pricey if you farm out the work.
22/28 and Bilstein Sports worked for me for 6 years. Car was driven long miles over the road to get to Mid Ohio, Watkins Glen, VIR, etc. A pleasant ride and decent handling. That said - I switched to 21/31 (with the same shocks) and Smart Racing sway bars and I still think it has a decent ride and I still drove the car to the same remote (to me) tracks. Although I believe that it could go stiffer and the 80,000 mile shocks will be either revalved or upgraded to Fox Adjustable.
For what its worth - it appears that you are working on your SC and assuming you have not changed the shocks before, they are definitely due for a change if they are the original shocks. You might do that and the bushings before you change anything else.
As for bushings, the poly bronze bushings, although near solid compared to the original rubber, provide a much improved ride. The suspension pivots freely with no binding and no noise compared to some of the intermediate solutions. This would be pricey if you did not do the work yourself. Changing T-bars will be pricey if you farm out the work.
12-28-2006, 02:27 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
Speaking from experience (I did the same thing you are contemplating last year, and my car is an '83 SC), I went with:
22mm Front T-Bars/28mm Rear T-Bars
22mm F&R adjustable Weltmeister Sways
Elephant Racing (ERP) PolyBronze Bushings (all around)
Turbo Tie Rods
Bilstein HD Fronts/Bilstein Sport Rears
All of these parts were bought with help from and through Steve Weiner at Rennsport. Pricing was at or below just about anyone else (much lower than local guys), but that doesn't even begin to describe the value of having a guy like Steve to help at the end of the phone literally anytime I call him...priceless when doing suspension set-up on a 24 year old car!
Anyway, I love my set-up, and everyone that has driven my car (including a couple of local club racers) think the set-up is superb. It is very well behaved on the road (surprisingly so, in fact), deceptively quick on the autox course, and stable and sure-footed on the racetrack...inspiring a confidence at high speeds that I never thought I'd have in my SC.
What would I change? Two things...the rear T-Bars should have been 29,,. Steve suggested this...I was afraid of oversteer and went with tried and true 28's...he said I'd outgrow, and he is right. Go with 29mm's. My Weltmeister sways do the trick, but I would go with SRP (Smart Racing) bars if I could do it again. The Weltmeisters are much cheaper, but difficult to adjust, and noisy as all getout. I also snapped the front one at a weld point during an autox...got a free replacement, but it doesn't inspire confidence! (By the way, Steve recommended against these as well...c'est la vie!)
To begin with, you don't need custom valved shocks IMO. HD and Sports are good until you figure the car out.
One last word...as much as it is easy to do this, resist the urge to cheap out. Bushings should be done with the T-Bars...you will do them eventually, so why do or pay for twice the labor? Also, do the 930 tie rods, wheel bearings, etc. while you are doing all of this.
Good luck!
22mm Front T-Bars/28mm Rear T-Bars
22mm F&R adjustable Weltmeister Sways
Elephant Racing (ERP) PolyBronze Bushings (all around)
Turbo Tie Rods
Bilstein HD Fronts/Bilstein Sport Rears
All of these parts were bought with help from and through Steve Weiner at Rennsport. Pricing was at or below just about anyone else (much lower than local guys), but that doesn't even begin to describe the value of having a guy like Steve to help at the end of the phone literally anytime I call him...priceless when doing suspension set-up on a 24 year old car!
Anyway, I love my set-up, and everyone that has driven my car (including a couple of local club racers) think the set-up is superb. It is very well behaved on the road (surprisingly so, in fact), deceptively quick on the autox course, and stable and sure-footed on the racetrack...inspiring a confidence at high speeds that I never thought I'd have in my SC.
What would I change? Two things...the rear T-Bars should have been 29,,. Steve suggested this...I was afraid of oversteer and went with tried and true 28's...he said I'd outgrow, and he is right. Go with 29mm's. My Weltmeister sways do the trick, but I would go with SRP (Smart Racing) bars if I could do it again. The Weltmeisters are much cheaper, but difficult to adjust, and noisy as all getout. I also snapped the front one at a weld point during an autox...got a free replacement, but it doesn't inspire confidence! (By the way, Steve recommended against these as well...c'est la vie!)
To begin with, you don't need custom valved shocks IMO. HD and Sports are good until you figure the car out.
One last word...as much as it is easy to do this, resist the urge to cheap out. Bushings should be done with the T-Bars...you will do them eventually, so why do or pay for twice the labor? Also, do the 930 tie rods, wheel bearings, etc. while you are doing all of this.
Good luck!
12-28-2006, 02:29 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Mahopac, NY
Posts: 966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by jeeper31
And you still have the wrong pic in your Avatar!!
I know, haven't taken new ones yet. Maybe today. I'm off from work.
I know, haven't taken new ones yet. Maybe today. I'm off from work.
12-28-2006, 02:34 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Mahopac, NY
Posts: 966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 2002M3Drew
By the way, where does the "Arbeitm" come from? (I understand that "Arbeit" is "work," auf Deutch...but the m?)
My first name is Matt
ArbeitM
When I signed up for Rennlist way back in the day, I didn't realize my username would also be my screen name. At the time I didn't even have a Porsche, I was just browsing and never posted so I didn't care
It was just easier to leave it.
12-28-2006, 02:39 PM
#24
Team Owner
I think we all have a story like that one... when I signed up every name was taken .. and guess what was on TV behind me ... Top Gun .. I was so frustrated I enetered it and it took .. oh well, being from Canada it kind of stuck .. oh well .
PS great game with the Juniors hockey team yesterday. US boys played great and have some super talened kids, they are in tough for making the medal round now though ...
PS great game with the Juniors hockey team yesterday. US boys played great and have some super talened kids, they are in tough for making the medal round now though ...
12-28-2006, 02:45 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Mahopac, NY
Posts: 966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok...so here's the new dilema:
I decided getting some new autox/DE tires was more important.
So now I can't do both torsion bars and shocks. It's either one or the other.
I was thinking of doing shocks and waiting on the torsion bars. But talking to someone yesterday said I should do the opposite.
What makes the most sense?
I decided getting some new autox/DE tires was more important.
So now I can't do both torsion bars and shocks. It's either one or the other.
I was thinking of doing shocks and waiting on the torsion bars. But talking to someone yesterday said I should do the opposite.
What makes the most sense?
12-28-2006, 02:58 PM
#26
Race Car
Originally Posted by arbeitm
My last name is Arbeit.
My first name is Matt
ArbeitM
When I signed up for Rennlist way back in the day, I didn't realize my username would also be my screen name. At the time I didn't even have a Porsche, I was just browsing and never posted so I didn't care
It was just easier to leave it.
My first name is Matt
ArbeitM
When I signed up for Rennlist way back in the day, I didn't realize my username would also be my screen name. At the time I didn't even have a Porsche, I was just browsing and never posted so I didn't care
It was just easier to leave it.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
12-28-2006, 03:15 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by arbeitm
Ok...so here's the new dilema:
I decided getting some new autox/DE tires was more important.
So now I can't do both torsion bars and shocks. It's either one or the other.
I was thinking of doing shocks and waiting on the torsion bars. But talking to someone yesterday said I should do the opposite.
What makes the most sense?
I decided getting some new autox/DE tires was more important.
So now I can't do both torsion bars and shocks. It's either one or the other.
I was thinking of doing shocks and waiting on the torsion bars. But talking to someone yesterday said I should do the opposite.
What makes the most sense?
If you lower the car (which you can do with the stock suspension for free), you will have an immediate improvement in handling as well...especially in autox. I had done this before improving the other parts, and it is a viable first step.
One note on the R-Comps...the A6 Hoosiers and V710 Kumhos will outgrip your stock suspension...the Toyo RA-! would be an ideal choice for your car, and you can use them for autox, track and even street driving.
12-28-2006, 03:57 PM
#28
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Is the car in question your 83SC? How many miles are on your shocks? You cannot check the shocks by convential means. The cars simply do not bounce no matter how worn out your shocks are. Shocks need to be tested on a shock dyno. I believe that if you have Boges on your car and were to merely change your shocks; you would need to change your ride height to escape the resultant Rally car look..
After a well known pro drove my car at VIR he commented that the car was loose. He suggested changing the shocks first. Later he commented on the shocks again. I cannot imagine going to seriously stiffer T-bars without upgrading or revalving/rebuilding the shocks. Then don't try to make up for soft suspension by adding stiffer sway bars. Sway bars are for fine tuning. Make one change at a time and evaluate the result then move on (or back).
Obviously I agree with posters who have recommended Smart Racing parts.
After a well known pro drove my car at VIR he commented that the car was loose. He suggested changing the shocks first. Later he commented on the shocks again. I cannot imagine going to seriously stiffer T-bars without upgrading or revalving/rebuilding the shocks. Then don't try to make up for soft suspension by adding stiffer sway bars. Sway bars are for fine tuning. Make one change at a time and evaluate the result then move on (or back).
Obviously I agree with posters who have recommended Smart Racing parts.
12-28-2006, 05:38 PM
#29
Keep in mind that the overall job of the shocks is to control the springs/torsion bars. (cars bounce). When we set up a car for the track the shocks are valved according to the spring rates used (within 20%).
Lowering your car from the stock settings will give you a different feel and an overall better handling car. The suspension should be set up as a package for best performance. Come up with a plan and aquire the parts as your budget will allow. 22mm front T and 29-31 rwear T is a good choice. Be- careful on sway bar choice as too heavy a bar will make the cars ride very stiff. A 25 mm rear bar and a 18-24mm front bar would suite the bill nicely.
www.rudtnersracing.com
Lowering your car from the stock settings will give you a different feel and an overall better handling car. The suspension should be set up as a package for best performance. Come up with a plan and aquire the parts as your budget will allow. 22mm front T and 29-31 rwear T is a good choice. Be- careful on sway bar choice as too heavy a bar will make the cars ride very stiff. A 25 mm rear bar and a 18-24mm front bar would suite the bill nicely.
www.rudtnersracing.com
12-28-2006, 05:48 PM
#30
Addicted Specialist
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by arbeitm
Ok...so here's the new dilema:
I decided getting some new autox/DE tires was more important.
So now I can't do both torsion bars and shocks. It's either one or the other.
I was thinking of doing shocks and waiting on the torsion bars. But talking to someone yesterday said I should do the opposite.
What makes the most sense?
I decided getting some new autox/DE tires was more important.
So now I can't do both torsion bars and shocks. It's either one or the other.
I was thinking of doing shocks and waiting on the torsion bars. But talking to someone yesterday said I should do the opposite.
What makes the most sense?
I would, personally, wait untill I got the funds to the Tbars, bushings, and shocks together...(sways could definitely wait until whenever you feel like it). And I say this primarily because of cost/labor.
Rear shocks r&r easily, but I have heard that some have had the rear end *rise* (reason is you are replacing old/dead boingers with new gas-pressurized Bilsteins). So there's a ride-height adjustment/alignment right there.
If all goes well with the rear and it doesn't rise, replacing the fronts, however, will necessitate resetting ride-height, followed by an alignment.
No big deal, to be sure, but why work it (if you are doing it yourself) and pay twice? I suppose if your car is at stock 4x4 height
then you could lower the entire car since in replacing the fronts you'll be halfway there already. But if your car is already at a ride height you like, I'd leave it all alone and enjoy the car, and learn to work with the shortcomings of the suspension. And when you finally do end up doing the suspension, you will really appreciate the transformation! 
...all IMHO, of course.
Edward