View Poll Results: Would you buy an original 3.2 Carerra built new by Porsche today?
Yes
69
63.89%
No
39
36.11%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll
Would you buy an original 3.2 Carrera if it were built new today?
08-25-2006, 12:19 PM
#16
Racer
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by andrew911
OK, since you guys started this thread in this direction I'll chime in that I agree with the comments on the diesel Mercedes of the 1980s, as well as the s class benzes of the same time period (I'll throw in the 86+ 300e), and 528e. They don't build cars like this anymore, and these cars as well as the bullet proof 911 were what gave "german engineering" it's reputation. I have always told people of the vault like build quality and heavy solid feel of these cars as well as their ability to pile on miles 200-300K are the norm for properly maintianed cars. Heck, just last year my parents finally sold their 1985 528e with 205K miles....this was a car that was, shall I say, not properly mainainted, and to the day we sold it it didn't burn any oil between oil changes! (of course the inside and outside were in rough shape- the car sat outside as a weekend/spare car for the last several years of its life).
I would buy one of the 1980's benzes in a second except for one thing- I like quicker cars that have quick handling. I have a 2000 540i sport as my daily driver, which I have had for 5 years now...I'm still loving it esecially on long highway drives- the car is so soild at triple diget speeds, has awesome brakes handling and acceleration, and a smooth ride. That said, while there are no squeeks or rattles it's not as solid materials wise as the 528e/535i era or even the series just before my series (the "E34" 525i/535i series). I also love its looks vs. the new crap that BMW makes. I was one to switch cars every 2 years, so for me to have a car 5 years and not be near bored of it speaks volumes
The car that takes the helm from these old school 1980's german cars is the 1990+ Lexus LS400/LS430. While the car isn't any near as solid feeling as the german cars, it is overengineered in that the car can take 300K miles in stride, although the models from the past few years are getting overly complex and gimmicky for my taste.
When I see an old well-maintaned benz/bmw/porsche from the 80's, I still do a double take and look at the car. I love the conservative styling and imagine the solid feel of the car as it drives by. The germans dumbed down their quality to cut cost/price to compete with lexus, and unfortunately we'll never see these types of cars again.
A V8 S class cost something like $60K in 1990...that would be well over $100K today if built to the same standards- most people couldn't see spending say $110K for an S class benz when they can get 9/10th of the feel for $60K in a lexus. We may notice that 1/10 difference in feel and 5/10 difference in quality and appreciate it, but 90% of the car buying public will not or at least not enough to pay 80% more for the car, and the car companies are in business to sell cars and make money.
-Andrew
I would buy one of the 1980's benzes in a second except for one thing- I like quicker cars that have quick handling. I have a 2000 540i sport as my daily driver, which I have had for 5 years now...I'm still loving it esecially on long highway drives- the car is so soild at triple diget speeds, has awesome brakes handling and acceleration, and a smooth ride. That said, while there are no squeeks or rattles it's not as solid materials wise as the 528e/535i era or even the series just before my series (the "E34" 525i/535i series). I also love its looks vs. the new crap that BMW makes. I was one to switch cars every 2 years, so for me to have a car 5 years and not be near bored of it speaks volumes
The car that takes the helm from these old school 1980's german cars is the 1990+ Lexus LS400/LS430. While the car isn't any near as solid feeling as the german cars, it is overengineered in that the car can take 300K miles in stride, although the models from the past few years are getting overly complex and gimmicky for my taste.
When I see an old well-maintaned benz/bmw/porsche from the 80's, I still do a double take and look at the car. I love the conservative styling and imagine the solid feel of the car as it drives by. The germans dumbed down their quality to cut cost/price to compete with lexus, and unfortunately we'll never see these types of cars again.
A V8 S class cost something like $60K in 1990...that would be well over $100K today if built to the same standards- most people couldn't see spending say $110K for an S class benz when they can get 9/10th of the feel for $60K in a lexus. We may notice that 1/10 difference in feel and 5/10 difference in quality and appreciate it, but 90% of the car buying public will not or at least not enough to pay 80% more for the car, and the car companies are in business to sell cars and make money.
-Andrew
boy you brought up a lot of great points...and I agree we can blame companies like Lexus for MB's decline and cost cutting. Whether its just hearsay or not, the Daimler CEO Deiter Zetsche vows to return the company to the Engineers from the Accountants. In fact, as a symbolic move he has returned MB's executive base to the original town in Germany where it was located in the 70s and 80s although I don't remember the name.
I have to agree on the 528e too....what a tank...from bmw.
I guess all I really want from porsche is for them to build an air cooled de-electronified 911 again.
08-25-2006, 12:21 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
I also was lucky enough to own, and commute with, an '85 300 TD - it was brilliant, but a little too stodgy. My drive was about 40 miles each way, over freeway, highway and canyon. One very rainy night, deep into the canyon, a large rock rolled down a steep hill onto the road. It was still moving when I hit it, I was travelling about 50 mph. The right front tire blew out, the wheel bent, but that car hardly twitched and got me safely to a turn out about 2 miles away. There are times when having a tank is good!
Regarding building an "air-cooled" 911, even a special edition - don't count on it. The reason Porsche had to go to water-cooled heads was emission related, and those requirements are even tougher today than when the 996 entered the picture.
Pete
Regarding building an "air-cooled" 911, even a special edition - don't count on it. The reason Porsche had to go to water-cooled heads was emission related, and those requirements are even tougher today than when the 996 entered the picture.
Pete
08-25-2006, 12:23 PM
#18
Racer
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Peter Zimmermann
I also was lucky enough to own, and commute with, an '85 300 TD - it was brilliant, but a little too stodgy. My drive was about 40 miles each way, over freeway, highway and canyon. One very rainy night, deep into the canyon, a large rock rolled down a steep hill onto the road. It was still moving when I hit it, I was travelling about 50 mph. The right front tire blew out, the wheel bent, but that car hardly twitched and got me safely to a turn out about 2 miles away. There are times when having a tank is good!
Regarding building an "air-cooled" 911, even a special edition - don't count on it. The reason Porsche had to go to water-cooled heads was emission related, and those requirements are even tougher today than when the 996 entered the picture.
Pete
Regarding building an "air-cooled" 911, even a special edition - don't count on it. The reason Porsche had to go to water-cooled heads was emission related, and those requirements are even tougher today than when the 996 entered the picture.
Pete
What is it about the air cooled motor that gives it poor emissions?
Thx.
08-25-2006, 12:48 PM
#19
Track Day
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They don't build cars like this anymore, and these cars as well as the bullet proof 911 were what gave "german engineering" it's reputation.
I will become a Porsche 911 owner a week from now when I pick this car up:
911
Funny, the 2 other cars I was considering were a 2001 e55 AMG and a 2000 BMW 540 with the 6 speed manual. I like both the Benz and the BMW but decided I wanted 1980's build quality and wanted to really feel connected to the road.
Regarding Lexus, someone said something poignant---That Mercedes tried to "out-Japanese the Japanese." I thought that summed it up well.
One thing to keep in mind---cost for a top-of-the-line Benz have not risen very much since the heyday of the 1980's. You would pay something like $75K for an S class--and that was 20 years ago! I am glad to see Benz really coming back now. They are making good strides. I think Zetsche is the right guy for them now.
08-25-2006, 02:36 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
My porsche cost $78K new on the sticker 1993, probably about the same as a c2 cab if not overly loaded up now, 14 years later....granted the 1993 cost more to make due to labor, but I bet you'd get a different feeling from the materials from the "old" 93 vs a new 07...only 2 ways to lower price- one is more efficient building, and the other is lower quality materials...I'd say it's a combination of both
I have the 6-speed 540- the car handles better than you think it will given the ride smoothness when you start to push it....to me I have the best of both worlds- my favorite sedan (barring the M5 up to 2003) and my favorite porsche (air-cooled 911, in my case the 964).
As far as MB, I don't know that they'd ever impress me again- unless they came out with a luxury sedan built like a tank with high quality materials and just the right amount of tecnhology- ABS, airbags all around and stability control- that's it. My guess is even if they did find some way to get the quality of materials and solid feel back it would (1) cost way too much for me to contemplate even used (the only way I buy my cars), and (2) they're definition of luxury would include all sorts of the technology that I despise in what should be a driver's car- things like NAV, idrive type controls, rear backup cameras, built in TVs, adjustible air suspensions, etc.etc. It's opinion, but I don't go for that "high technology" crap in today's cars.
I have the 6-speed 540- the car handles better than you think it will given the ride smoothness when you start to push it....to me I have the best of both worlds- my favorite sedan (barring the M5 up to 2003) and my favorite porsche (air-cooled 911, in my case the 964).
As far as MB, I don't know that they'd ever impress me again- unless they came out with a luxury sedan built like a tank with high quality materials and just the right amount of tecnhology- ABS, airbags all around and stability control- that's it. My guess is even if they did find some way to get the quality of materials and solid feel back it would (1) cost way too much for me to contemplate even used (the only way I buy my cars), and (2) they're definition of luxury would include all sorts of the technology that I despise in what should be a driver's car- things like NAV, idrive type controls, rear backup cameras, built in TVs, adjustible air suspensions, etc.etc. It's opinion, but I don't go for that "high technology" crap in today's cars.
08-25-2006, 03:39 PM
#21
Track Day
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I was really impressed after driving the 540i with the 6 speed manual. However, where I live in South Carolina, you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting 2-3 Bimmers. Part of this reason is because of the plant here.
I gave up on the 540 after a lady with 3-4 screaming kids pulled up next to me at a light in a 528i. Different car, but same e39 body. I just wanted to have something different. No one will ever confuse a 911 with a family car!
I do like the 5 series BMW but I do not think a 7 series BMW can hold a candle to an S Klasse Mercedes. In my opinion, that fight is over before it began.
I gave up on the 540 after a lady with 3-4 screaming kids pulled up next to me at a light in a 528i. Different car, but same e39 body. I just wanted to have something different. No one will ever confuse a 911 with a family car!
I do like the 5 series BMW but I do not think a 7 series BMW can hold a candle to an S Klasse Mercedes. In my opinion, that fight is over before it began.
08-25-2006, 03:48 PM
#22
well Porshe can't make em' new and if they could they would cost $80k.
But most of us drive nice ones with < $25k invested. With experienced mechanics, available parts ,forums like this one and another $15K mine could be "new" at half the price.
But most of us drive nice ones with < $25k invested. With experienced mechanics, available parts ,forums like this one and another $15K mine could be "new" at half the price.
08-25-2006, 03:54 PM
#23
Team Owner
I think the problem is that the heads have to get super hot to burn off any polluting substances. and without water cooling you just cannot get hot enough without destroying it. Apparently when it comes to emmisions control hot is good , but for engine performance hot is bad. I think that is the reason anyway.
08-25-2006, 03:58 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Here's another slant on the subject. BMW have made a retro Mini. Looks (a bit) like the old one. Toyota just made the FJ Cruiser. Retro again. If Porsche were to build a retro targa, and by that I mean a real targa, with removable top and all- styled like the old ones but with updated running gear, a/c, airbags, etc. heck yes, I'd buy one. That would be cool.
Cheers,
Paul.
Cheers,
Paul.
08-25-2006, 05:08 PM
#25
Instructor
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My 2 cents. MY GOD I absolutely love my 86 Carrera. I love the raw - riggling- go kart - bare bones race car feel. I can't get enough. My 89 C4 by comparison feels so much more like ... well... a car. I love the 89 also, but it does not really get fun until you start doing 60 on winding roads (which we sorely lack in my part of Florida). The 86 is so sweet and so raw that it is fun anywhere and everywhere.
Having read all the above posts and agreeing that remaking the anachronistic 3.2 is jsut not going to happen I end up having to say that there is one company that is making the closest thing to the 3.2...Lotus. Yes I said it.
My other favorite is the Lotus Exige...even the Elise. These are the closest thing to the feeling I get when I drive my 3.2.
When I want refinement I drive my 89 C4 or the Lexus if we have passangers, but for fun it's the 3.2. And again, the nearest thing to an old 911 is the Lotus Exige.
Having read all the above posts and agreeing that remaking the anachronistic 3.2 is jsut not going to happen I end up having to say that there is one company that is making the closest thing to the 3.2...Lotus. Yes I said it.
My other favorite is the Lotus Exige...even the Elise. These are the closest thing to the feeling I get when I drive my 3.2.
When I want refinement I drive my 89 C4 or the Lexus if we have passangers, but for fun it's the 3.2. And again, the nearest thing to an old 911 is the Lotus Exige.
08-25-2006, 06:19 PM
#26
Addict
Rennlist Member
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I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that so many of us suffer from the same syndrome - well-built, great performing German cars. I too have gone through many BMWs (1600 to 528e & E30s, even sold 'em for a few years) & now have a Benz (300TE - what a fine tank!) in addition to the Porsches.
If it is possible to make a 50 yr old car (ala 356) like-new again, we should be able to do the same going forward - as long as the basic car was designed & built to last... which sadly appears to be a concept abandoned by all car makers. The "long-lasting" car was a specific design & engineering goal of Ferry's - in fact the focus of the last chapter of his autobiography. Our 911s (up to '89) are the last where that ideal was made manifest (this doesn't mean I don't want a GT3). I'm not holding my breath for new retro designs (as appealing as some are) to also be long-lasting ones. I hope that we will see a return to the ideal as alt fuel & hybrids mature in coming years.
But, you gotta hand it to PAG... the closest thing to a classic 911 on the market today is a 997 & the best retro car made is the Boxster.
If it is possible to make a 50 yr old car (ala 356) like-new again, we should be able to do the same going forward - as long as the basic car was designed & built to last... which sadly appears to be a concept abandoned by all car makers. The "long-lasting" car was a specific design & engineering goal of Ferry's - in fact the focus of the last chapter of his autobiography. Our 911s (up to '89) are the last where that ideal was made manifest (this doesn't mean I don't want a GT3). I'm not holding my breath for new retro designs (as appealing as some are) to also be long-lasting ones. I hope that we will see a return to the ideal as alt fuel & hybrids mature in coming years.
But, you gotta hand it to PAG... the closest thing to a classic 911 on the market today is a 997 & the best retro car made is the Boxster.
08-26-2006, 01:52 AM
#30
Burning Brakes
OK so here is the way I look at it.
I think the 3.2 were awsome cars and a real 911 has that raaw race car feel, a dry sump engine, an air cooled block, and a small amount of electrical crap.
Now take those things and look at the 911 GT3 is has a Dry sump, air cooled block (water cooled heads only), raw race car feel, is crazy fast and the engine is the 3.6 still based on the old 3.2. And for todays cars a small amount of electrical crap.
In other words the GT-3 is today's version of the 1980's 3.2. all the other 911s of today are as i call then true GT (grand touring cars) Like the 928 was in the 1980's. So 2006 GT3 = 1980s Carrera and 2006 911 Carrerra = 1980s 928.
What do you guys think?
I know if i had the money I would laugh at the idea of a Carrera and go right for the real thing the GT-3. Drivers used to say the 911 bites if you make a mistake now they say the same thing with the GT3.
I think the 3.2 were awsome cars and a real 911 has that raaw race car feel, a dry sump engine, an air cooled block, and a small amount of electrical crap.
Now take those things and look at the 911 GT3 is has a Dry sump, air cooled block (water cooled heads only), raw race car feel, is crazy fast and the engine is the 3.6 still based on the old 3.2. And for todays cars a small amount of electrical crap.
In other words the GT-3 is today's version of the 1980's 3.2. all the other 911s of today are as i call then true GT (grand touring cars) Like the 928 was in the 1980's. So 2006 GT3 = 1980s Carrera and 2006 911 Carrerra = 1980s 928.
What do you guys think?
I know if i had the money I would laugh at the idea of a Carrera and go right for the real thing the GT-3. Drivers used to say the 911 bites if you make a mistake now they say the same thing with the GT3.