Just Dave

Hi -

A little background: I joined Rennlist last week and looked around based on the recommendation of a friend of mine who is soon to be a Porsche owner once again. Currently the presumption is that I will leave the motorcycling world to join the rest of you as a proud 911 owner. I have always had a curiosity regarding the 911 model and lusted for them when I was a teen in the 1980's along with every other car I thought cool in Road and Track back then. This led me to seek a job at a European repair shop where I started as the ever present lot boy and worked my way into a technician position. While I worked on several makes of European cars the Porsches generally went elsewhere, usually to a specialty shop with a background in air cooled motors as it wasn't a specialty of ours. Thus my exposure to them has been limited and has led me to question what to purchase.

What I want in a car is pretty basic but perhaps I am out of my mind in the Porsche world. I figure to spend upwards of $10K for the right car. It doesn't have to be a show car, as I will drive it daily, but I do maintain my vehicles with an eye towards detail and keeping nice things nice, fixing anything wrong. In other words, I don't just drive something to death, it must have form as well as function but doesn't have to have perfection. It will not be my family car, it will be my fun car/commuter car/motorcycle replacement car. I don't need something wild nor tuned and modified into the realm of unreliability and unrealistic maintenance. Maximum horsepower also is not the point for me. Handling, reliability and power held in proper balance means more to me as I find it contributes to the overall fun of driving the car.

As a former tech, I am pretty handy under the hood but a flat, air-cooled six that has it own unique characteristics will be new for me. My understanding is that the 2.7 motor is less reliable than the 3.0. I understand Carrera tensioners are important from reading, but I don't know why. An air pop-off valve in the airbox seems to be a good-to-have item as well for yet another reason I am not clear on. (Many ads for 911 cars mention these, but as I am not "in the know" they don't mean much to me. What can I say; I'm a noob and willing to admit it.) I prefer the body style of the 1974 to (roughly) 1989 models. I'd like to think fuel injection is the way to go unless someone can enlighten me as to why a carburetor would be better or be just as good for my purposes in those particular years. Turbo at this point is pretty much out of the question for cost and maintenance reasons. Targa or coupe doesn't matter as much to me as total car does. In other words, if it is the right Targa (look and feel) I'd take it, even though I prefer a coupe with sunroof. I suspect I would be pleased with a run of the mill, "Plain Jane", low optioned car rather than a special order, 1 of 1200 units produced, sport-package laden collector-mobile. I appreciate those for what they are, but if I am going to have something affordable, I can't imagine swinging the price tag for one, nor driving it daily with little regard for total mileage on the car.

So, the short story made long is what should I get for a decent, basic 911 for under $10K? Any input or questions are welcome at this point.

Thanks,
Dave

jdogporsche

Dearest Just Dave,

It has been 14 days since our last rendevous...(inside joke, I am the friend Dave mentions in his post).

Before I go into my opinion on what you should look for/get, let me say this. Welcome to the Porsche community. Once you join, you cannot ever truly leave, at least not in your heart. With that said...

I have had very good luck with my Porsche ownership. I have owned a 1970 911T (my second Porsche but first love), which I drove as a daily driver for 2 years. I loved the car more than anything I had ever driven. It was a classic to me and represented what I dreamed of in a Porsche. Silver exterior, black interior. Greatest shape? Nope. Fast? Not the fastest. Pricey? No actually it was rather cheap in my opinion, but it was a Porsche and was my first 911, so I was in love. For those two years I drove the 911 I had one problem that did not allow me to drive it. I had a vacuum line come loose. I opened it up and fixed it within 1 minute. So, not too shabby as far as repair issues went. My first Porsche was a 72 914. Also a fun car, easy to work on, did not require much in repair. Not fast, not as much of a classic Porsche per say, but very fun and back then, very cool! So in my experience, I have been lucky in regards to repairs.

As you can read from the posts on this site, there are many problems that can/do come up. I am sure you will get some replies detailing what to look out for in your future purchase. I have been a lurker on this site on and off for years and find that most everyone is willing to help in any way that they can. This is a great community, and the Porsche community as a whole is a fantastic thing to be a part of.

Now for my opinion of what to get. I like 911's past 1976 as the rust factor does not seem so bad (due to galvanizing). I like the coupes actually more than the Targa (ironic as that is what I am getting right now), but having the top off on a hot day is fantastic. I think (because I know you) that you would be happiest with a 77-79 911. These can be bought for the price you are looking for, the reliability you need and the performance you crave. Like I said, I am sure you will get more advice, but that is my two cents worth. Used to be 1 cent... Inflation.


Jeremy
Soon to own a 1977 911 Targa Euro 3.0

imcarthur

Carrera tensioners: Up to 83 the timing chain had a spring loaded tensioner that could (repeat could) fail & your timing chain would fall off the sprocket. The Carrera style was hydraulic & far less likely to fail.

Pop-off valve: If you get a mighty backfire, your airbox could self-destruct.

Jeremy is pointing you in a good direction for your budget. Another mandatory check is to drop the valve covers & inspect the head studs. Another weak area.

And welcome to both of you. This forum & Pelicanparts will answer any question you might ever have.

Pete Z's The Used Porsche Story is a good read to learn all of the differences in the different years. And see his PPI at the top of this forum.

Ian

jdogporsche

Come on guys...some other Porschefiles out there, chime in with your opinion!

:-)

Jeremy

Just Dave

They are probably thinking I'm nuts or unrealistic. I should just get that ice blue 1979 911 SC on Queen Anne and be done with it.

Just Dave

imcarthur

Yeah I'm surprised no one else has chimed in.

In the Pelican ads:

1982 SC Targa 76K $11,500 Link

1977S Targa converted to Cab $10,000 Link

1977S Coupe 76K $10,500 Link

They are out there.

Ian

Chuck Harmon

In 1999 I bought a 1983 911SC with 150,000 miles on it for $10,500.00
It needed some minor work but the AC blew cool and it was a solid car.
This was my daily driver for 4 years ! I kinda miss the ol' girl !
It was a fun car to work on, lots of aftermarket stuff out there and lots
of used parts available on the web. Tons of good advise here and on
Pelicanparts. My suggestion is to find a high milage SC that is looking
for a good home. You can search the Porsche Club Regional web sites
for good used SC's. IF the 79 you've found meets your requirements...
go for it !!
Good Luck
Chuck

aveale

i am sure there is an 81-83 SC with your name on it somewhere.

Be patient!

T

911 Rod

Buy as many books on used 911's that you can find.
Then check out and drive as many cars (above and below your budget) as possible.
You will become familiar with them pretty quick and be comfortable with your decision when you make it.
Rod

MarkSchu

Just Dave - My name is Mark and it has been 23 hours since my last 911 drive. It is not too late...you are a young man in the prime of life...crack cocaine is nothing like this stuff...totally addictive and will send you to the poor house. Oh forget it...you won't listen anyway. Buy the SC and when you've spent 50 k on coilovers, a 300 hp dual plug 3.6 liter a$$kicker, just remember I told you so.

Just Dave

Patient I am; unaccustomed to the idiosycrasies of the 911 I am not. After working in the car business I completely agree with the adage that there is always another deal around the corner. I will continue to read, and check out vehicles, but what I am really hoping to do is get a good general direction regarding models and years in my price range (let's say around $10K, give or take a couple of thousand) from those in the know on this forum and thus cut out a lot of preliminary discovery work.

It has been said a fool doesn't learn from his mistakes, a smart man learns from his mistakes and a wise man learns from the mistakes of others. I endeavor to be wise on this matter and concede readily that there are those on this forum with far more experience and knowledge than myself. It is those Masters that this Novice is turning to for wisdom. And yes, I can read the popular used 911 book, but I am hoping for a Cliff Notes version in a posting to get me jumpstarted in my search and save me time from looking at cars I really would be advised against considering anyhow. You see, I am willing to travel for the right car, but if someone points out I probably don't want a 1976 911 S because of various reasons, then it will save me a trip to some state halfway across the country to look at one.

I hope I am not coming across like a condescending fool, it isn't my intent. Either way, I appreciate all the responses, you folks are great, thanks!

- Just Dave

Just Dave

Hi MarkSchu -

I heard there is 12 step program for your (and soon to be mine) addiction, but I didn't pay attention to where it was because I was too busy surfing the web looking for the right 911.

Thanks for the laugh, didn't realize I could drag 300HP out of a flat six, that sounds like fun. A ways down the road, but fun nonetheless.

- Just Dave

Peter Zimmermann

Dave: I haven't chimed in on this one because I normally don't try to anticipate a market, however I can offer some words keyed to your post. Most of the members/posters in this forum know how I feel about a pop-off valve, an aftermarket part never authorized by Porsche or duplicated in some fashion be their engineers. From my point of view they fall into the category of "poor" aftermarket items. When the factory redesigned the air box, about 1980, and inserted a cold start fuel diffuser inside the central chamber of the air box, that fixed the problem. Air boxes rarely blow on properly maintained cars because air leaks are controlled, plug wire condition is monitored, cold control pressure is within spec and fuel mixture is set properly at every tune-up, and kept in spec. I will cut those with '73.5 - 75 cars, with a hand throttle, a little slack. The hand throttle is a tricky mechanical adjustment that requires that the throttle body butterfly open 7 degrees. If it opens more, the car will be too lean for proper cold starting. Mechanical parts in the throttle linkage can wear, plus the basic hand throttle adjustment itself is often misunderstood, so the air box has more opportunities to blow in those cars. By the way, replacement air boxes for '74/75 cars get the new internal diffuser, but the '73.5 box doesn't. OK, the automatic cold start system used from '76 was wonderful, and got better almost every year. It is the mechanic's responsibility to advise every owner regarding cold control pressure, but it's often overlooked. If that pressure is set to lean, it can shorten air box life expectancy. Air leaks, also the cold start enemy (as the engine warms parts expand and hide the symptoms) mean that the car's owner must be in tune with his car and report cold start difficulty, such as small backfires. Every 15K miles the car should be professionally serviced, which includes a two-minute flashlight inspection of the intake manifold connecting sleeves and their clamps, as well as a wiggle of each injector. Also, the CO% (mixture) must be checked and set, as necessary, at every 15K mile major maintenance. That's crucial to air box life and can also tell your mechanic well in advance of a problem because something is changing. Here's the kicker. I've had cars towed in to my shop with blown air boxes (neatly fitted WITH a pop-off valve), I've had cars brought in that had faulty pop-off valve seals (which cause high rpm lean conditions and increased oil temp), I've had cars towed in with pop-off valves stuck open causing a condition that was so lean the car could only crank, and I've had cars towed in where the epoxy failed and the valve was dislodged. For the record, my shop never installed a pop-off valve, unless it was one dislodged that was installed by others. I believe that a pop-off valve has the ability to save a box now and then, but if it "pops" there is a problem with the car that should be corrected. Otherwise, the box will blow anyway. There is probably another justifiable situation to use one, and that's if you love your car, but there is no quality available service within a reasonable distance to where you live. Maybe then, maybe, I might think using one is OK. But even with it, if the car has bad plug wires, or un-metered air entering, or the cold control pressure is wrong, or the mixture isn't right, the box is going to blow anyway. Incidentally, the original airbox on my '82 lasted 192,000 miles, and I replaced it then because of a crack - it did not leave me stranded.

Now, on to $10K. It is highly unlikely that you will find a good car for that. CA SCs that are pretty well used up are still bringing $11K and more. 2.7 liter cars are a real crapshoot because of the engine problems that I discuss at length in my book. Basically you will have to get very lucky to achieve your goal, because, for whatever reason, the market for decent '69 - 73 cars has also moved out of your price range. Rusty cars are out there, and cheap, but you sure don't want one of those, and cars that have had a color change are often in dismal condition. You have a very steep hill to climb just ahead of you!
Pete

Just Dave

Thanks Pete for all your input and explanation regarding the pop-off valve. In a nutshell, if I am not misunderstanding, a pop-off valve being needed can be a bandaid solution for a runability issue, such as an improper fuel/air mix.

I am realizing that I will have to up my $10K figure a few thousand to get what I want and I am ok with that. Forgetting the purchase cost for a moment, it sounds like I ought to look for a 1978-1983(ish) 911 S or SC with the Carrera tensioners upgrade to meet my desired criteria. If I pay $15K for it, so be it, but I want to buy the best car I can afford as I understand it saves a lot in the long run. I will be getting your book soon.

Thanks again!

- Dave

Just Dave

One last thing, what is this I hear about SC models having oil drips/leaks? This is normal and acceptable on some level?

Will someone please elaborate?

Thanks,
Dave