Help with Purchase, please!
04-19-2003, 09:23 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
Aye - stay away from "mutt" Porsche unless the conversions are VERY well done and DOCUMENTED!!!
The alarm bells should be blaring "accident - accident" when you see one of these. Im not saying all conversions are chop shops - but be careful.
The 89 Carreras are typically more expensive than the 87-88's because its generally accepted asthe last year of the "real" 911. If you want a little bit of a collector car, great. If not, spring for an 87 or 88 with he G50 - same car as the 89 and usually an asking price $2-3K lower than the 89's.
There is a wealth of information in books and on the net about these cars. Try looking for the following books at a Barnes and Noble or equivilant (do they have these in Germany?)
Used Porsche Buyers Guide (general info)
101 Projects for your Porsche 911 (great to judge maint requirements and eventually do work)
The Porsche 911 Story (more general info)
Porsche 911 Red Book (all the details - color codes, difference between years, etc)
Have you checked the classifieds on Rennlist and Pelican Parts? The cars on both P-car forums are all owned by us - the nut cases - and can usually be assumed to be in top shape.
The alarm bells should be blaring "accident - accident" when you see one of these. Im not saying all conversions are chop shops - but be careful.
The 89 Carreras are typically more expensive than the 87-88's because its generally accepted asthe last year of the "real" 911. If you want a little bit of a collector car, great. If not, spring for an 87 or 88 with he G50 - same car as the 89 and usually an asking price $2-3K lower than the 89's.
There is a wealth of information in books and on the net about these cars. Try looking for the following books at a Barnes and Noble or equivilant (do they have these in Germany?)
Used Porsche Buyers Guide (general info)
101 Projects for your Porsche 911 (great to judge maint requirements and eventually do work)
The Porsche 911 Story (more general info)
Porsche 911 Red Book (all the details - color codes, difference between years, etc)
Have you checked the classifieds on Rennlist and Pelican Parts? The cars on both P-car forums are all owned by us - the nut cases - and can usually be assumed to be in top shape.
04-20-2003, 05:42 AM
#17
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Gentlemen,
just on the off chance that any of you lives in or near Birmingham, MI--would anybody be able to look at a 1989 911 C4 at a dealer there? I'm in Germany and a bit terrified by a complete sight-unseen purchase. I'll ask the dealer for a PPI as well, so the main thing to look out for would be overall shape.
Best,
Helmut
just on the off chance that any of you lives in or near Birmingham, MI--would anybody be able to look at a 1989 911 C4 at a dealer there? I'm in Germany and a bit terrified by a complete sight-unseen purchase. I'll ask the dealer for a PPI as well, so the main thing to look out for would be overall shape.
Best,
Helmut
04-20-2003, 10:01 AM
#18
Stay Cool,
there is no hurry, its a buyers market. For $20,000 there are loads of great 3.2s out there. I would buy from a Private Pano add before paying a dealer markup, of course only after a solid PPI.
there is no hurry, its a buyers market. For $20,000 there are loads of great 3.2s out there. I would buy from a Private Pano add before paying a dealer markup, of course only after a solid PPI.
04-20-2003, 12:12 PM
#19
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Rennlist Member
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by pwd72s:
<strong>Rather than buy a '75 with a faster looking body, I've always thought it would be fun (C'mon lotto ticket! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) to buy a solid '74-77 car. Being the most unpopular 911 model years according to Bruce Anderson, they are relatively cheap. Then put your money into rebuilding the 915 gearbox, installing a limited slip. Upgrade the suspension, go to '80's 930 brakes, the largest that will fit under 15" wheels. Next up? Cruise the wrecked-em yards for a '96 or later 993 engine, & a good front mounted cooler. Do as few body mods here as possible...Q ships...I've always loved em! Anybody remember the first year of the galvanized body? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">PWD72s,
The fully galvanized body started in 1976. Us fellows with the older rust buckets need to be very vigialnt.
HELMUT -
Another source of Porsche Ads is <a href="http://www.enthusiastcars.com/index_framev1.html" target="_blank">Enthusiast Cars</a>.
IMHO, I would not be looking to a dealer for a PPI as most of their mechanics have experience with only cars of the last 8-10 model years. Remeber, most of the cars they see are the newer water pumpers. I would find a local garage that speciliaizes in the older cars. You can find these by contacting the local PCA regions for a referral. When I was looking for my car, over 12 months I must have looked at 12-15 cars and paid for 3 PPI's before I found what I wanted in a condition I found acceptable. Be patient.
Remeber, sometimes the fun is in the hunt.
<strong>Rather than buy a '75 with a faster looking body, I've always thought it would be fun (C'mon lotto ticket! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) to buy a solid '74-77 car. Being the most unpopular 911 model years according to Bruce Anderson, they are relatively cheap. Then put your money into rebuilding the 915 gearbox, installing a limited slip. Upgrade the suspension, go to '80's 930 brakes, the largest that will fit under 15" wheels. Next up? Cruise the wrecked-em yards for a '96 or later 993 engine, & a good front mounted cooler. Do as few body mods here as possible...Q ships...I've always loved em! Anybody remember the first year of the galvanized body?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">PWD72s, The fully galvanized body started in 1976. Us fellows with the older rust buckets need to be very vigialnt.
HELMUT -
Another source of Porsche Ads is <a href="http://www.enthusiastcars.com/index_framev1.html" target="_blank">Enthusiast Cars</a>.
IMHO, I would not be looking to a dealer for a PPI as most of their mechanics have experience with only cars of the last 8-10 model years. Remeber, most of the cars they see are the newer water pumpers. I would find a local garage that speciliaizes in the older cars. You can find these by contacting the local PCA regions for a referral. When I was looking for my car, over 12 months I must have looked at 12-15 cars and paid for 3 PPI's before I found what I wanted in a condition I found acceptable. Be patient.
Remeber, sometimes the fun is in the hunt.
04-20-2003, 02:51 PM
#20
Helmut... be very careful with the 89-91 C2s and C4s. They are notorious for problems, specifically the oil leaks.
I looked at them too, because they are really low priced right now in the US. There is a reason for the low pricing: not in demand due to problems.
Surely there are a lot of good C2s and C4s on the road...but the perception is there to avoid them if possible.
I was advised by 2 Porsche mechanics and one dealer to not buy any C2 or C4 due to their mechanical problems.
As a side note, I am from the Birmingham MI area...however I moved out to CA 6 months ago. I know the Porsche dealer you are probably talking about.
Can you consider buying a car from the US west?
I looked at them too, because they are really low priced right now in the US. There is a reason for the low pricing: not in demand due to problems.
Surely there are a lot of good C2s and C4s on the road...but the perception is there to avoid them if possible.
I was advised by 2 Porsche mechanics and one dealer to not buy any C2 or C4 due to their mechanical problems.
As a side note, I am from the Birmingham MI area...however I moved out to CA 6 months ago. I know the Porsche dealer you are probably talking about.
Can you consider buying a car from the US west?
04-20-2003, 08:40 PM
#21
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Sonic,
thanks for the words of caution. Patience has never been my strongest virtue.
Sure I would consider buying a car from the West Coast--I think in the end the shipping costs are never the decisive factor, if everything else checks out. If you have any leads, let me know.
I must say, apart from their beautiful shape, I like the idea of having a C4 in the Chicago winter. I know it will horrify many of you, but I want at at least be able to drive the car year round--whether I'll end up doing it is another matter.
The most trustworthy lead I have so far is a guy in Chicago with a 1984 Targa, 40k miles, $20,000 (could possibly bring it lower) all service records, never driven in winter; he had a leakdown test done which turned out very well (2% - 3% on all cylinders), is willing to have the car checked out by a Porsche dealer I know--in short, he gives all the right signals. I just would so much rather have a coupe rather than a Targa (sorry HarryD)!
How do I get into the Rennlist classifieds?
Cheers from sunny (but porscheless) Berlin,
Helmut
thanks for the words of caution. Patience has never been my strongest virtue.
Sure I would consider buying a car from the West Coast--I think in the end the shipping costs are never the decisive factor, if everything else checks out. If you have any leads, let me know.
I must say, apart from their beautiful shape, I like the idea of having a C4 in the Chicago winter. I know it will horrify many of you, but I want at at least be able to drive the car year round--whether I'll end up doing it is another matter.
The most trustworthy lead I have so far is a guy in Chicago with a 1984 Targa, 40k miles, $20,000 (could possibly bring it lower) all service records, never driven in winter; he had a leakdown test done which turned out very well (2% - 3% on all cylinders), is willing to have the car checked out by a Porsche dealer I know--in short, he gives all the right signals. I just would so much rather have a coupe rather than a Targa (sorry HarryD)!
How do I get into the Rennlist classifieds?
Cheers from sunny (but porscheless) Berlin,
Helmut
04-21-2003, 12:26 AM
#22
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> be very careful with the 89-91 C2s and C4s. They are notorious for problems, specifically the oil leaks.
I looked at them too, because they are really low priced right now in the US. There is a reason for the low pricing: not in demand due to problems.
Surely there are a lot of good C2s and C4s on the road...but the perception is there to avoid them if possible.
I was advised by 2 Porsche mechanics and one dealer to not buy any C2 or C4 due to their mechanical problems </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I agree with Sonic dB in that one should be very cautious and exercise good judgement and patience when buying an older sports car (or any old car for that matter).
But, I respectfully disagree with the statement that early 964's should be avoided. Some do have their problems, but a competant Porsche Tech should be able to spot these problems in a PPI and that should be enough warning to walk away. They, 964's, are not all Exxon tanker oil spewing, time bomb waiting to go off type of cars. The majority are very solid cars. Many owners on the 964 board boast of long service lives and relatively little problems. All of the early 964's potential problems have permanent and reliable fixes.
All 911's can cause owner's problems. Over the years, I've seen and read of examples of SC's and 3.2 Carreras with exploding rubber clutch centers and airboxes along with premature valve guide wear. Should we avoid SC's and 3.2 Carrera's too for their problems? Certainly not. Be knowledgeable of each model's weaknesses, inspect each candidate for that weakness before buying and then proceed based on what's been learned about the car. Don't pass up a potentially nice car based on bad press.
I was also advised by my trusted mechanic and several dealers to avoid 964's as well. I ended up buying a very early build '90 C2. According to the press and others, it would seem I probably bought the worst 911 ever built since the 2.7's of the mid '70's. But, that's far from the truth. It's been a great car for me and has been very enjoyable. After purchasing the car, my trusted mechanic (who earlier advised me to stay away from 964's) went over the car for me for a few hours and told me after he was done that I bought a very solid and very nice car that was in excellent shape.
Nice cars exist in all of Porsche's model ranges.
Jay
90 964
I looked at them too, because they are really low priced right now in the US. There is a reason for the low pricing: not in demand due to problems.
Surely there are a lot of good C2s and C4s on the road...but the perception is there to avoid them if possible.
I was advised by 2 Porsche mechanics and one dealer to not buy any C2 or C4 due to their mechanical problems </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I agree with Sonic dB in that one should be very cautious and exercise good judgement and patience when buying an older sports car (or any old car for that matter).
But, I respectfully disagree with the statement that early 964's should be avoided. Some do have their problems, but a competant Porsche Tech should be able to spot these problems in a PPI and that should be enough warning to walk away. They, 964's, are not all Exxon tanker oil spewing, time bomb waiting to go off type of cars. The majority are very solid cars. Many owners on the 964 board boast of long service lives and relatively little problems. All of the early 964's potential problems have permanent and reliable fixes.
All 911's can cause owner's problems. Over the years, I've seen and read of examples of SC's and 3.2 Carreras with exploding rubber clutch centers and airboxes along with premature valve guide wear. Should we avoid SC's and 3.2 Carrera's too for their problems? Certainly not. Be knowledgeable of each model's weaknesses, inspect each candidate for that weakness before buying and then proceed based on what's been learned about the car. Don't pass up a potentially nice car based on bad press.
I was also advised by my trusted mechanic and several dealers to avoid 964's as well. I ended up buying a very early build '90 C2. According to the press and others, it would seem I probably bought the worst 911 ever built since the 2.7's of the mid '70's. But, that's far from the truth. It's been a great car for me and has been very enjoyable. After purchasing the car, my trusted mechanic (who earlier advised me to stay away from 964's) went over the car for me for a few hours and told me after he was done that I bought a very solid and very nice car that was in excellent shape.
Nice cars exist in all of Porsche's model ranges.
Jay
90 964
04-21-2003, 02:41 AM
#23
Jay... I agree with you to some extent...you have a great car! I know we all take our cars very personally, so I really do not want to cut down yours...not at all!
The perception though, is pretty strong that the first 3 years of C2s and C4s have a probability of oil leak problems due to the cylinder heads being bored together without cylinder head gaskets in place. This was serious leaking which caused substantial repair bills.
Most of the cars that made it through that period have had this problem fixed through repairs or recalls (probably yours is included in this).
So, the issue may not be an actual problem...as much as it is a perceived and well-documented problematic past. In addition to this problem, there were oil leaks in other areas too..
This is one of the reasons why the 87-89 911s are priced higher on the used market than the 89-93 964s. The other reason being body style preferences.
Personally, I think the 964 is a damn sexy car... and they can be picked up for a song right now. I would only buy one that had the cylinder head issue fixed and documented...and only if I wasnt concerned with the resale value of the car.
I was talking to the owner of the local Porsche dealership, and when I mentioned 964, the first thing he said was "stay away from them. Go earlier than that, or up to the RS America and/or 993s."
Thats from a guy who makes his living off of this...
The perception though, is pretty strong that the first 3 years of C2s and C4s have a probability of oil leak problems due to the cylinder heads being bored together without cylinder head gaskets in place. This was serious leaking which caused substantial repair bills.
Most of the cars that made it through that period have had this problem fixed through repairs or recalls (probably yours is included in this).
So, the issue may not be an actual problem...as much as it is a perceived and well-documented problematic past. In addition to this problem, there were oil leaks in other areas too..
This is one of the reasons why the 87-89 911s are priced higher on the used market than the 89-93 964s. The other reason being body style preferences.
Personally, I think the 964 is a damn sexy car... and they can be picked up for a song right now. I would only buy one that had the cylinder head issue fixed and documented...and only if I wasnt concerned with the resale value of the car.
I was talking to the owner of the local Porsche dealership, and when I mentioned 964, the first thing he said was "stay away from them. Go earlier than that, or up to the RS America and/or 993s."
Thats from a guy who makes his living off of this...
04-21-2003, 02:50 AM
#24
Up in the SF Bay area, there was a 91 964 C2 with only 55,000 miles on it. The dealer was asking $24000 for it. Considering the age and mileage on this car, its a steal anyway you look at it...oil leak or not.
Down the street from me, there is a 91 C2 Cab sitting in the parking lot. Maybe Ill stop by there tomorrow and see what they are asking for it.
Down the street from me, there is a 91 C2 Cab sitting in the parking lot. Maybe Ill stop by there tomorrow and see what they are asking for it.
04-21-2003, 08:03 AM
#25
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Hi everyone,
I seek enlightenment upon the issue of rear spoilers when purchasing a 911. Personally I dislike rear spoilers as they disturb the aesthetics of the coupe's back (although I do realize that they serve an aerodynamic purpose). Can one take these spoilers off, or ask the seller to take them off? Is one destroying value by asking for them to be taken off? Is there any kind of discoloration visible when the spoilers are taken off?
Thanks for your advice,
HMS
I seek enlightenment upon the issue of rear spoilers when purchasing a 911. Personally I dislike rear spoilers as they disturb the aesthetics of the coupe's back (although I do realize that they serve an aerodynamic purpose). Can one take these spoilers off, or ask the seller to take them off? Is one destroying value by asking for them to be taken off? Is there any kind of discoloration visible when the spoilers are taken off?
Thanks for your advice,
HMS