seronde

What kind of leakdown numbers should I hold out for when I am planning to pay top dollar for a low-mileage (less than 50K) 87 Carrera? I have heard some people say anything less than 10%. On the other hand, a book I have, "The 911 Story," suggests that a properly running, healthy 3.2 should have numbers in the 3-5% range. Is that realistic?

Thanks!

TonyG

seronde

You need to see, for a top-dollar 3.2, less than <5%.

Honestly, it's fairly rare that any true porschephile would let a real-deal "top-dollar" car have the valve covers pulled, as well as the spark plugs pulled for any PPI, without the owner being present (if not the owner actually pulling the plugs and threding in the compression fittings himself...)... Porsche dealers included..

Anyway.... if you hit 6%, it's not bad by any means.. it's just not "top-dollar" material.

TonyG

Peter Zimmermann

Actually, the less than 10% range is there to allow for wear in various testers, as well as the temperature of the engine when the test is performed. Over a period of 25+ years I performed leakdown tests on 911s, sometimes as many as five per week. My mechanics had their own testers, some from SnapOn, some from other makers. The differences between the oldest tester in the shop, and the newest, was about 3%, at an ambient of 70 degrees F. Anytime that we found a suspect cylinder we always backed up that test with a different tester. We also found that a perfectly healthy city-driven car could have numbers in the 8% range, that same car might test as low as 4% after a trip to Las Vegas from L.A.

I'm curious, why would anyone remove the cam covers to perform a leakdown test on a 3.2L Carrera? As far as a shop allowing the owner of a car to enter their workspace, lay out tools and pull the plugs... right, that's going to happen. Not. I don't think that Workman's Comp is available for the occasional guest worker...

Pete

TonyG

>>>Actually, the less than 10% range is there to allow for wear in various testers<<<

Huh? Then don't use old testers. Especially if you know there's a 3% difference. Throw it in the trash.

We have new Snap-on... and it reads exactly like the old no-name brand (can't think of the name now) that's about 6 years old. If it didn't... it would be on the trash too.

>>>I'm curious, why would anyone remove the cam covers to perform a leakdown test on a 3.2L Carrera?<<<

You know why. And it's not because of the 3.2... but in cases of a 3.0 SC.

This was a general statement covering PPI's on 911's.


>>>As far as a shop allowing the owner of a car to enter their workspace, lay out tools and pull the plugs... right, that's going to happen. Not.<<<

Yep. I agree... it is not going to happen.

And in cases of a potential buyer that's looking to buy a <$20k car, it's not worth the risk of some idiot grease monkey screwing up the car.

People here would be very surprised if I were to tell what idiotic, stupid, rookie mistakes that have been made by shops that are referred to here as "very reputable".

And typically in these cases... the shops would deny fault or will simply say, "hey... it was like that when we got it....".

Typically... the shop owners are skilled. The problems lie with the cheap "mechanics" hired by the shops (since the owner can't do all... or even the majority of work himself), in order to make a profit. I can't blame them... but I won't let them touch or be "trained" on my hardware.

The other BS thing to wach out for with PPI's is that shops know full well that if you buy a car that has been PPI'ed there, and the PPI disclosed problems (which it will 99% of the time in a 25 year old car)... the shop performing the PPI is very likely to get the job to correct the "problems" either as a condition of the sale or post-sale, thus exposing a clear conflict of interest.

TonyG

fixnprsh

anything under 10% is alright, even with a margin of error factor. the lower than that, the better. I have a very old Snapon leakage tester, You know, the one in the red box with regulator, works great tested it against a new snap-on one, no differance, No need for a new one. Quality tools.

I would want under 10% on my own cars

Problem lies if you are slow and dim witted, like to smoke or have a cup of coffee and let the motor cool down too much before you get to the last cylinder.

I once haad a 330i that would run rough with an approximate 10% power loss on cylinder 2, compression was fine, so was leakage. but when you watched the compression guage, it would flutter before it set its number, just on this one cylinder. I removed the head and found that the valves had just barely kissed the piston causing them to drag while the motor was turning over, so you DEFINATELY need a competent mechanic to do a PPI, which most shops only let experianced tech look after a PPI.

As far as letting the customer watch, meh, I'm not in the entertainment industry so too bad. Have a cup of coffee and watch a little TV.

Peter Zimmermann

OK, let's see if I've got this right. In the old country (USA pre-Internet) those young, eager to learn, people who make those idiotic, stupid rookie mistakes used to be called apprentices. After they learned how to work without getting dirty they became journeymen. Anyone reading this that has hired one of those wonderful kids and watched them grow from a parts washer into a Bruce Anderson - you are special. You know that those idiotic stupid rookie mistakes never made it out the door, and your customer never knew that they had been made. Those apprentices, not cut from college cloth, also want to live the American Dream, whether it be home ownership and children, or go Kart racing. According to the above post they should be killed at birth, rather than given that all-important chance to become someone. Those same kids who need to receive on the job training, because no other form of training is available. Those same kids who will not become "cheap" mechanics - whatever that is. My hat comes off to all of you out there who dream of working on Porsches, maybe even doing it for a living. And don't worry about making an idiotic stupid rookie mistake - just don't make it twice. Those mistakes usually occur when the boss isn't looking, but even then the boss fixes the problem. If he doesn't, and let's the car out the door, well, there is one great thing about that. This is America, and you never have to go back, and after time passes that shop will close its doors. Like any vocation, there are those who can do the job, and there are those who talk a great story. The above post that comments on how a shop works are blatantly ignorant, top to bottom. The professional shop can be trusted to do what they've been contracted to do, and in the rare cases where there's a problem they will fix it. And there's one other great thing about America, the shop also has rights. The right to refuse to repair a car who's owner has a bad attitude.
Pete

fixnprsh

no kidding, we all had to start off some time, we weren't born as the "golden child" of Porsche mechanics.......................... I missed that comment in his post Pete, I should have read it more carefully after his "opinons" in the last thread Mr Tony G decided to charm in on.

Does anyone know what shop this *** clown is affiliated with?????? What ever shop it is, it must be high in an Ivory tower on the highest hill in L.A.

fixnprsh

Oh, it looks like he is a Know it all I.T. guy judging from this link in his sig???? I thought you worked at a shop? You seem to act like you do as you know FAR more than anyone else. DOH!

http://archsoft.biz/

TonyG

bla bla bla

In the old days, people that were truely apprentices, which had to actually apply to be accepted into an apprenticeship, served real apprenticeships. They were school trained, coupled with many many thousands of hours of on-the-job training and directly supervised by a journeyman.

But this is not the old days. It has nothing to do with the Internet.

The simple fact is that most shops hire inexpensive labor to do most of the work in order to be profitable. It's an issue of economics rather than ability. Therein lies the problem.

The mistakes I've not only seen, but have had done to my cars range from improperly rebuilt transmissions, to incorrect ring & pinion lash, to loose bolts, to a washer dropped into the intake port (then the engine started), to hoses disconnected, to bent floor boards, to stripped/cross threaded spark plug holes, And the list goes on. And without naming names.. All of these substantial mistakes have all been done by shops that people here and on Pelican Parts swear by as the Gods Gift to Posche Mechanics (not all in Southern California).

And while some of the shops accepted liablity and offered to fix it, some of them did not. And even then... the offer to fix comes at a cost.

Sorry... but you don't have to be factory trained Porsche mechanic to see the idiotic mistakes made.

While I won't go into my qualifications, we do have a shop which works mostly on last model Porsche Turbos, and I make most of my living operating a software shop (which happens to be the Preferred Software Vendor/Developer for Worldpac.. and soon to be IMC as well).

>>>oh, it looks like he is a Know it all I.T. guy judging from this link in his sig????<<<

Yeah. I know nothing but IT. That's me.

I don't have to work at that shop. I own part of the shop. And sometimes I work there. But it's not out of necessity... it's out of a desire to work on some really cool cars, like the V8 951 or the 996 powered Boxter, or the 3.6L SC, or the 600HP 993TT , or the 650HP 996TT's, or the F40 Ferrari we're fixing, etc.... the list goes on.

Anyway... the issue I have on Rennlist is people giving biased or bad advise. That's it. When I see it... I call it. I don't care if they wrote 200 books on Porsches or anything else.


TonyG

PS> ArchSoft is our Worldpac & IMC Application Integration Web Site www.ArchSoft.biz

For those of you that do not know... Worldpac is the USA's largest import parts distributor. IMC trails. The shops that you get your cars serviced at are most likely getting the parts from Worldpac, as Worldpac has delivery trucks that service just about every city in the USA.

So next time the shop tells you they can have the part "by this afternoon..." they are probably placing the order in Speed Dial, which causes the order to be placed at Worldpac, which then causes the part to get on to a delivery truck, and dropped off at the shop.

Then the shop marks it up anywhere from 50% to 100% and sells it to you.

Also... most of the places you see on the Internet that sell auto parts (such as www.killerautoparts.com, www.aaaforeignautoparts.com, www.europartsetc.com, www.canadiancarparts.com, www.partsquest.com, www.group9performance.com, and about 80 others, all use our software to sell these parts, drop-ship and private labled to your door.

Now Serving Canada!

:-)

TonyG

>>>anything under 10% is alright<<<

9.9% is a lot.

Furthermore, the original question pertained to a top-of-the-line car at a premium price.

10% is not acceptable for the best-of-the-best.

To argue that somehow gauge inaccuracy plays into what the acceptable range is, is a joke. That's almost as bad as using a gauge, for anything, that you know in advance is inaccurate.




TonyG

fixnprsh

Ever heard of Ptap or Step? Porsche and BMW apprentice progams, they work very well. We get alot of good people from them.

Ever do a leak down on a Ferrari? Mama mia, you can drive a freight train past the rings, but they run like a champ, but thats not "the best of the best" We would run cup motors with 10% leakdown for hours on end. I know my stuff, so does Pete............................

But You,......................... You are loud mouthed moron who has no knowledge of what works in actual shops except the one in your head. You need a reality check, you have an ego bigger than your mouth and a pretty small set of ***** to blast someone from behind a screen and you have offended most people on here, I'm not sure how many people actually like you, not very many by a few peoples opinons I've talked to, and I would be embarassed to be you, we can ignore you, but you are stuck with yourself 24/7, must be hell. You need to get a life other than arguing your ego against industry icons and experianced mechanics that make a living in this industry and have a finger or two on its pulse. You never mentioned the shop that you work at, come on, I'm in socal and so is Pete, along with several other members so I'm sure we have heard of it, or know people who know you. I mean, an industry pillar such as yourself with such knowledge (probably the most outside of germany) and experiance building race cars and motors, servicing customers cars, doing PPI's (how many have you done?) data logging and burinig chips, you can probably whip us blind folded in a contest.....................I could go on, but I have customers cars to finish before the weekend....................................

fixnprsh

Oh yeah, if you're an IT guy and are part owner in a shop, and you don't actually work there, you have no basis or authority to tell us how to do our job or what results mean. No sooner than I would be telling you how to write code or assign IP addresses.

You basically have a financial interest in your hobby.

TonyG

fixnprsh

Maybe you could learn to read before you reply.

A) The guy asked about top-of-the-line with respect to '87 Carrera leak down. Not Ferrari, not BMW, not anything else. Stick to the question.

If you think 10% qualifies as a good result for a top-of-the-liine car, then you need you've been sniffing too much exhaust.

I'd hate to see what you and your icon friend consider "average".... you know.. with gauges that are accurate of course.


B) I never said anything negative about Porsche or BMW apprenticeships (or any other apprenticeship for that matter). I am a firm believer in qualified real-deal apprenticeships.

What I said was that most shops hire cheap, inexperienced, young labor in order to make a profit. (go back and re-read it)


C) "industry icons". If you say so. You two can keep feeding off each other if that's what makes your day.

But based on the phone calls, PM's, and emails I've received, the group here really doesn't agree.
Those are the people that are afraid to post because they don't want to hear BS from people like you or your little "click" of followers.

D) "You are loud mouthed moron". Moron? Loud mouthed? YES. I am because I can be.

And I am because I can't stand to see BULL**** posted on Rennlist.

I am effectively LOUD, such that I can ensure that anybody Googling your shop find out that your shop considers a 10% leak down acceptable for a top-of-the-line car.

What's the name of your shop?


Moron? Wow. You're going to hurt my feelings.


TonyG

TonyG

>>>Oh yeah, if you're an IT guy and are part owner in a shop, and you don't actually work there, you have no basis or authority to tell us how to do our job or what results mean. <<<

An IT guy. Yes. But before that I was....? Come on... tell us....

I don't actually work there? Next week I will be there personally assembling a 968 engine as well as a 911 engine and trying to fix the work of another shop that couldn't get a 944 turbo running correctly.

>>>you have no basis or authority to tell us how to do our job or what results mean.<<<

If you say so.

>>>...No sooner than I would be telling you how to write code or assign IP addresses.<<<

I would certainly listen if you had something usefull, relevant, or enlightening to to contribue, good or bad, about any areas of IT that we are involved with.

But I doubt that's the case... or is it?

>>>You basically have a financial interest in your hobby.<<<

Yes.

Yes because there's no real money in my hobby. If there was, I wouldn't be involved in software.

There's nothing more I'd like than to be able to make the money I need to make in a job that did not require critical thinking 100% of the time.

Between the two... one is a cake-walk in terms of mental HP required.

TonyG

fixnprsh

"click" I dont hang out with people on here, outside of here for one

For two, as I asked in your last aborted post, as well as this one, Which you STILL haven't answered what is the NAME OF YOUR SHOP? What are you affraid of? I'm a BMW master tech currently employed by Crevier BMW. I have my ASE's, factory trained by VW and Porsche and my hack grease monkey *** has been working on cars since I started after school at my fathers all euro independant working on Porsches, BMW, Alfa, whatever I've built everything from cup motors to 2 liter bug motors, to 500HP 930's and M5's........................................................... HOW 'BOUT YOU BIG BOY?