Folks

Thanks for all the great help in the past.

I am now on prospect number five which is 1978sc german import to the U.S. Subject to a good ppi I feel that this may finally be the one.

The things I like about this foreign import are the cloth seats and the hand crank windows.

Are there any negatives to owning and operating a gray market car that I should be aware of? Does it play any considerable role in the value of the car?

Thanks for your comments

Wayne

 

Many feel that a gray market car is worth roughly 50% of that of a like-condition USA model. I don't know in which state you reside but you should check with your local DMV, before proceeding, in order to find out what's required. Gray market cars require EPA and DOT certification; the car should have complete certification documents. The car should have proper side marker lights, a catalytic converter in addition to a smog pump, door safety beams, windshield safety glass, etc. I agree with you, cloth seats and manual windows have a certain appeal, but don't let your emotions get in the way of the important stuff!
Pete

 

thanks for the comment.

I am not certain if it would make any difference but my understanding is that the car was initially brought from Germany to the U.S. by a military officer and has been in the U.S. for a period of more than 10 years. The car is currently registered in Ohio but I will have to register and title in Indiana. Your advise sounds good and I will heed it.

Is it essential that the paperwork you described stay with the car at all times or does it become a non factor after the car is titled in one of the states?

I had no idea that the value of the vehicle could be so drastically affected.

Thanks again

Wayne

 

Being so close to the US and with our limited selection a good 30 -50 % of our cars are grey market cars being imported from the US. The only big difference for us is really the speedometer. I think the grey market affect i think is less as the car gets older. But i must tell you I looked at many 'US' cars when I was looking for mine and for some reason I did not even consider it if it was a grey market, but I just can not tell you why..... but maybe I am outside the normalized curve...

 

Wayne: It is not necessary to carry certification documents in the car, but you should keep them with other important papers for that time in the future when you sell the car.

No special consideration was given to members of the armed forces who wanted to bring vehicles home with them, the cars all required federalization.

One more thought, be sure to call your insurance company and find out if they will write the car, and what value they will assign to it. It's doubtful that you'll be able to get stated value coverage, but you definitely will want to know where you stand with them.
Pete

 

Thanks Pete and Iceman

I have contacted the agency and they have stated that they will have to see the car before they determine if they will provide full coverage. They stated that the 10 digit serial number does not present a problem.

I remember from when I was overseas in the navy that you could purchase german cars from the manufacturer, register and drive them in the country where you were stationed, and then have them shipped back to the U.S. To my recollection the vehicles were manufactured to U.S. import standards. However, I do not recall what the policy was regarding serial numbers.

The car in questions does have DOT safety glass and does appear to meet U.S. standards for side markers and such. However, there are no documents pertaining to when it actually entered the country. The owner does have several years of Ohio registration papers and emission test results.

Thanks again

Wayne

 

Peter Zimmermann

This is non-sense.

>>>Many feel that a gray market car is worth roughly 50% of that of a like-condition USA model<<<

Many who? The cars are almost identical. And for the most part up through the end of the 3.2 Carrera's ROW cars were better cars. They are lighter and clearly faster than their USA counterparts, and have options that could not be obtained in the USA version .

This added performance and lighter weight is also why the POC forces the Euro 911's to be classed a full 1 rung higher in Time Trialing and Racing than their USA counter parts. That should tell you something...

And FWIW, the "many" you reference must not be the last 3 people that have all given offeres on my '84 Euro Carrera of $18k (I think it's worth more).

>>>Gray market cars require EPA and DOT certification; the car should have complete certification documents.<<<

Yeah so? So did the USA cars when they were unloaded off the docks.

Once the car has been brought into the USA and has been inspected, certified, and issued a current registration, the car can be bought and sold, all day long, with ZERO difference from that of a USA car.

There is no need to have any document in your possession or carried in the car.

The ONLY issue with a ROW car is thte initial "bringing it into the USA process". Once that's over with, it's just like a normal car. And this is in California no less.

I've owned a good number of Euro 911's and have never 1 time had to have it inspected, certified, or anything else that I did not have to do for any USA car.

If it has a California registration, it can be bought, sold, traded-in, or registered in another state just like any other car.


>>>One more thought, be sure to call your insurance company and find out if they will write the car, and what value they will assign to it. It's doubtful that you'll be able to get stated value coverage, but you definitely will want to know where you stand with them.<<<

I've use State Farm, All-State, Progressive, and probably a few others over the years, and ALL have issued insurance for either fair market value (typical) or stated coverage (almost never worth the additional cost for 95% of the Porsches here anyway).

TonyG

 

Wayne:

My brother just bought a 1983 Euro 911SC back in September. It had zero documentation with it, just a valid WI title. From our inspection, it seems to be imported well with US lighting "updates" including sealed beam lamps (more like a degradation from Euro spec!), side markers, updated mph speedo, etc. He had no trouble passing emissions (strict in our area), titling the car or insuring the car. This car is along side his other 1983 Euro 911SC which has been in the US since 1987 with no problems.

So, I think if the car has a valid title in Ohio, I bet you won't have much trouble with registering and titling it in Indiana.

He paid $11,000 for a car with 78,000 miles that needs about $5000 worth of work to be a great driver condition car.

Gotta love the typical Euro lack of options, higher compression motors, funky fabrics and crank windows on the Euro cars!!

Good Luck!

Jay
90 964

Everyone loves pics, so here are his two Euros...

No sunroof, A/C or leather turbo look:


"Beater" Euro SC:


Funky funky Euro fabrics on the turbo look!

 

Where are the window cranks on that Euro? I see a power window switch on the passenger door....

 

Dave,

I was refering to Wayne's first post.

Jay

 

Hi Wayne: Just caught back up to this thread. It's entirely possible that the car you're looking at was bought through a tourist/military delivery program. If that's the case it will already have full USA certification. Does it have front fender mounted turn signals behind the front wheels?

Both of my brothers and myself did tours of duty in the Navy, and I do know of a couple of cars that were brought home after buying a USA spec car in Europe. My earlier comment was made regarding someone who just walked into a dealer over there and bought a car, which would have been a vehicle that required Federalizing.

Do you have the car's actual VIN? It will start with 911 8 (vehicle type...'78 model). The 5th number is the key - if it's "2" it's a USA car, if it's a "3" it's an ROW car.

Pete

 

Grey market cars are not worth 50% less...........

When they are 20+ years old and waaaay out of warranty it's all subjective and based on three simple things....condition, condition, condition...........

If they are new or 1-2 years old it's an entirely different story altogether........

 

Thanks again for all of the great responses. The ppi will be completed tomorrow. I have my fingers crossed for good results. I like this car and, barring any major issues, I should have a 911sc in my garage by this time next week.

Pete

The 5th digit is a 3 so it must be a ROW car.

Thanks again

Wayne

 

In my experience ROW cars ARE worth less to the general public, and are harder to sell. I have a friend in the high-line used car business and many buyers will not even consider them. This may be unjustified, and due in part to horror stories in the late 80's (which by the way were true) of the trashed cars (BMW's, Merc's and 911's) that were brought in due to the favorable exchange rate, then federalized in the "minimum that will get it past DOT" method. A college budy was bringing these cars in in the mid 80's and reselling, and most had 40-60k of very hard autobahn miles on them. Those cars are still around and are the ones you have to be careful about. I am a real world example - I am on my 3rd Porsche and have bought and sold many european cars, and when I bought another 911 several years ago I would not even look at a euro car. No one is saying there aren't great ones out there, but reality is reality. I agree that as they get older and fully depreciated the price difference may diminish, but they GENERALLY will be harder to sell.

 

Mine is an ROW model, it was federalized way back in '84, de-federalized by me in '06. With the weather as nice as it has been this week, the last thing I am worried about is resale value.