84_Carrera

I spoke to Steve W about 91 vs 93 Gordon. I decided when the time came to do the 91 chip first, as I make (or in this week's case, try to make) trips all around, & didn't want to get stuck not having 93 when I needed it.

He really indicated 93 chip wasn't a huge deal as far as gas availability was concerned though, so I'd go with what you feel you're willing to try first. I would suggest you do as I was going to, installing & running at the dyno with Air/Fuel capabilities to see it real-time.

Lorenfb

"As Pete Zimmermann and others who have been involved with Porsches for many years
will indicate, installing a performance chip is equivalent to re-adjusting the distributor
on a 911SC with marginal results & problematic issues occurring, e.g. idling & pinging."

As I stated; "will indicate". There were NO quotes used.
The implication was that most knowledgeable techs will indicate/remember (when asked),
that performance increases were/can be obtained by simply adjusting the distributor
on an 911SC with the same marginal/problematic results as occur on the 3.2 Carreras.
Obviously, those techs that sell/promote chips most likely have biased views
and may disagree with the above.

The timing data are the unbiased facts that don't lie. Ignore them if you wish,
but it doesn't change the reality of "pushed" ignition timing for marginal gains
at the expense of pinging/detonation.

Steve W

The oversimplification by Loren is grossly incorrect and misleading. Air/fuel optimization is the first key to attaining max power, then comes ignition timing optimization. There are significant differences in both the part throttle and full throttle fuel mappings, which has not been recognized. This cannot be achieved by simply rotating a distributor and a box wrench. 911s by default run on the edge of lean at a stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1 at both cruise and high part throttle, except at high rpm when it gets very rich. This is primarily designed for emissions. Above 5000 rpm, the factory programming is very rich for most cars, designed to keep the catalytic converter cool under sustained WOT operation at 6200 rpm on the Autobahn for 2 hours straight. Also to cover for the worst case scenario that could be imaginable - with the worst gas, highest heat, in Death Valley, with clogged injectors, and a carboned up marginally maintained motor. It also covers for the gross variations in the Motronic system that I see often when a component goes out of spec. This kills power.

If you simply increase ignition advance, keeping the same stoichiometric 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio, you reduce the margin of saftey against predetonation and can get pinging. It is necessary and, and every tuner knows that when you increase the fuel injected required on throttle transients and at high load and full throttle conditions to the peak power point in the AFR curve, the cylinders and heads run cooler and the ping point is increased. You can safely advance the ignition timing in correlation and still maintain the same margin of saftey that came with the stock chip.

Like it or not, many, if not most Porsche owners modify their cars with exhaust upgrades that necessitate fuel mapping modifications to have the car perform both properly and optimally, without problems such as backfiring or lean surges that often occur if the stock chip is retained, or even worse, engine damage from an excessively lean condition when engine modifications are performed. Optionally, as most owners maintain their cars with above average maintence, and use the best octane fuel available, the option is given to them to have their chip safely tuned to a higher level, such as for 93 octane, without needing the overly excessive margin as if they were using 87 octane in the worst case scenario as described above.

Lorenfb

As I said, the performance chip data readout tells it all!
These data ( www.systemsc.com/tests.htm ) fully indicate what performance chip suppliers do
and DON'T do. There's no hypebole there, just facts.

fixnprsh

I have Deja Vu.......................I've seen a thread like this before....................Hmmm like a few months ago.

Nobody took my bet huh? Time to break out the thread locker!

84_Carrera

BWAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Thanks for the chuckle, man!

fixnprsh

I might as well thread hijack as this one is worthless anyway.......................

How is your great charging system caper going with the Carrera?

84_Carrera

Much better, I have illumination I never knew possible in my car, thanks for asking.

I paid the extra $$ to keep the core, and I think I'll look to have it rebuilt, and keep that one on the shelf, or put it up on eBay after - core was a ridiculously low $30 or something like that.

Getting back on track for a second...
IIRC, detonation would show itself as an erratic (jittery) curve on a dyno. I'm a big one for dyno & air/fuel numbers, not to be a nay-sayer on the ignition timing argument. Just out of curiousity, would one of the Brand X chips be a Weltmeister? Also out of curiousity, has anyone in the naturally-aspirated air-cooled community played with water injection coupled with the mucho-advanced timing chips?

fixnprsh

Loren can rebuild your alternator......................seriously, and damn good from what I hear.

rbcsaver

Pete,
You are without doubt one of the most knowledgeable Porsche resources anywhere. Thank you for speaking up and correcting another one of Loren's erroneous statements!
Personally, I have been waiting for Loren to speak up and deny that he haspreviously tried to, or is curently trying to design, develop and/or market an after-market Porsche chip application. Whenever I, and others ask this question he moves on, only to resurface at the next thread. Peter Z., indicates that he took a nuetral position on aftermarket chips. Why does Loren get whipped into a frenzy everytme a Steve Wong or other chip is mentioned? Everyone knows it's always about the money. It is time Loren to either fess-up of quit your BS on the 911 chip questions. What does it matter to you?There must be $ in this somewhere for you to bash chips. PLEASE don't say you care about about our cars and motors! You are not family, and you're not paying my, or others motor rebuild bills from chips that you claim will cause lean pre-detonation. So Loren, what now that your own word has no value, you have stooped to new lows by speaking for the true Porsche experts.
To what levels will you sink Loren? Just give it up. I am embarrased for you. Just rebuild the stuff sent to you and stop spinning your fiction into reality.
Again, what is your financial interest in what chip I have or haven't in my car.
regards,
Steve

rbcsaver

Please don't quote your own company website as a reference in a feeble attempt
to make it appear factual. As in, "I said it to be so, and this website, of the company I own, says that it is true.

Loren, my understanding is that you are tops at a Motronic rebuild and "fixn" says you're tops at alternator rebuilds. Stick to what you really KNOW, don't be so erroneoiusly opionionated, argumentative and controversial..then you'll find that business is flowing your way, and many more $ that you'd make trying to debunk a aproven thing..the SW Chip. Let it go man.

regards,
Steve

Lorenfb

As is ALWAYS the case, attack the messenger and ignore the facts.

No ONE has addressed the facts, why? I guess people just can't
deal with the reality of the data I've presented. Isn't it really better
to fully understand what you're putting in your car and how it affects it,
than blindly reading marketing hype and assuming it to be correct?

Let's have some intellingent comments and not personal slams like found
on the other forums! Maybe, though, most should stick with discussing;
chrome or no chrome wheels, what polish to use, or what's the best Porsche
color combo.

g-50cab

- nevermind

Gary R.

Here is the place for you Pete!
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...splay.php?f=15

KC911

I rarely reply to Loren's posts anymore...that horse was beaten to death a couple of years ago, but when they pop up I always think of Loren's (in)famous quote: "CHIPS SUCK, CASE CLOSED!".... oh wait, Jeremy (and Rosanne Rosannadana) are right: nevermind

Keith Craver
'88 CE coupe