emcon5

Chris, Thanks for the link. I am familiar with the article, and have coresponded with Noah about it in the past. What is interesting is that when Noah got those dyno numbers, his engine had a FD from a 2.7 on it, (aparently installed when the car was federalized), not the stock Euro Carrera 3 unit. The fact that he got 203hp at the wheels with a FD designed to support 175 at the crank is encouraging, but Bill's experiences kind of shoot that full of holes. The car Bill is talking about has the same fuel system as my car, with the mods I would love to do, and it can't provide enough fuel to make it run properly.

Due to California's crappy gas, Euro 9.8:1 jugs are probably not an option on one plug, and I can't twin plug because that won't pass visual smog check. Although 964 derived twin plug could work, if I swapped on the stock distributor and limped to the smog check place at 1/4 throttle.

Tom

Porschephanatic

Dennis, Great Topic! I didn't know there were so many options. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> Question for Steve; How many clams [approx] to convert my 3.0 to the 3.4L [98mm x 74.4mm, 964 cams, appropriately modified heads] motor you described with and without the twin plug modification, unless twin plugs are a must with the new compression ratio?Can I keep my CIS, or are carberettors a must with this conversion? I'd like to get as much power as I can [who wouldn't?] for the $$ I have saved. Thanks in advance to all who can enlighten me. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Ed Bighi

You would be amazed how quickly and easily a 930 motor goes in back there. My mechanic has done a couple and will easily put in a 930 motor in a day or less. Not the same case with a 3.6. I won't talk about it more because I have a good friend who everyone has to turn to for parts needed in 3.6 conversions. And he has to make a living.

emcon5

There is a guy on the Pelican BBS who just finished swapping in a modified 3.3 turbo into his SC. He has been outlining it's teething problems for the past few months. Final details <a href="http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81581" target="_blank">in this thread.</a>

Steve, you mentioned earlier, <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002416" target="_blank">and in an earlier thread</a> about the "need to tweak the idle mixture and control pressures to get more fuel into it."

In your experience, do you think a 80-83 CIS w/Lamda can be made to work with a 98mm P&C conversion with 964 cams and SSI's?

Thanks for your time,

Tom

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Hi Tom:

The CIS-Lambda setup does limit the quantity of fuel you can get into your engine and for that reason, you might stick with your SC cams and simply time them to Carrera 3.0 specs.

If you had time and a Dynojet with a really good fuel/air meter, you could tweak the oxysensor to richen it up for normal running and restore that for smog testing.

There is no question that there is "No replacement for displacememt" and if I were you, I'd budget for the set of 98mm Euro P/C's as that is biggest bang for your buck and will not cause you grief for smog testing purposes. These will last longer than the equivalent JE's of the same size.

emcon5

Thanks for the reply Steve,

[quote]If you had time and a Dynojet with a really good fuel/air meter, you could tweak the oxysensor to richen it up for normal running and restore that for smog testing.<hr></blockquote>

What about unplugging the O2 sensor, and running the lamda system open loop and adjusting the idle mixture richer? It would just be a matter of plugging it back in and leaning it out at smog check time.

Is this a workable option?

[quote]There is no question that there is "No replacement for displacememt" and if I were you, I'd budget for the set of 98mm Euro P/C's as that is biggest bang for your buck and will not cause you grief for smog testing purposes. <hr></blockquote>

Andial sells 98mm 9.8:1 for $3400, is that about the going rate?

Is 91 octane good enough for 9.8:1 compression?

Thanks again,

Tom

Tom F

One more note on the CIS sytems out there. I think that the '81-'83 Euro systems can supply more fuel than the US systems. I believe that it's key to getting the HP out of the high compression pistons. I've had all three of the major variations of the 3.0 CIS systems, and feel that the late Euro system is different, however, I have not studied the differences in flow rates. My '83 Euro certainly feels faster than the other SCs I've driven.

One more thing about the late Euro 3.0 setup, the maximum ignition advance is only around 25 degrees, and the advance curve is special for this engine.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

[quote]Originally posted by emcon5:
<strong>Thanks for the reply Steve,



Andial sells 98mm 9.8:1 for $3400, is that about the going rate?

Is 91 octane good enough for 9.8:1 compression?

Thanks again,

Tom</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Tom:

Yessir, you may run open loop on that.

Don't rely on the idle CO though, check full load WOT mixture and adjust with fuel pressures should you bump the compression up.

Andial's price on that is VERY good as they are clearing out old stock.

9.8:1 is IMHO, too high for 91 octane and single ignition. Factor in some hot weather and that's not good enough.

I'd upgrade to twin-ignition using a 3.6 distributor and use your SC one as the donor for advance and triggering. You may use either Bosch or MSD CD boxes and coils.

emcon5

[quote]Originally posted by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems:
<strong>I'd upgrade to twin-ignition using a 3.6 distributor and use your SC one as the donor for advance and triggering. You may use either Bosch or MSD CD boxes and coils.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Twin plug would still make me fail the California visual inspection though, so if I go this route, I would need to keep my stock dist to swap for the smog checks. I imagine this would be fine as long as I babied it to and from the smog test.

How much additional cost is the twin plug machine work above and beyond a normal valve job?

Tom

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Hi Tom:

Although I am no expert (as you know) on California smog issues, for the life of me, I cannot understand how an ignition system affects smog visual inspection. It runs cleaner but that is not the issue,...

Oregon has a good share of "Smog ****'s" and the RSR or 3.6 dual distributor is not a pass/fail problem here. I'd bet that you could get that through if you explained it.

We get $ 375 to machine the bottom plug holes in the heads and the lower valve covers.

emcon5

[quote]Originally posted by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems:
<strong>Hi Tom:

Although I am no expert (as you know) on California smog issues, for the life of me, I cannot understand how an ignition system affects smog visual inspection. It runs cleaner but that is not the issue,... </strong><hr></blockquote>

The problem is when they punch your car into the computer, it gives the tech a list of stuff to look for.

Following the letter of the law, it is illegal to install anything other than the original factory parts, unless the manufacturer has jumped through the apropriate <a href="http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/topforms.htm" target="_blank">beaurocratic hoops</a>. They would probably never catch it, but this includes pistons, cams, etc. The reason Thom F. failed his smog check after his 3.6 swap and had to take his car to a referee was the tech getting confused by the ignition system. (I believe a direct quote is "I am not knowing why your car is having 2 distributors") Full text of the smog gestapo's Mein Kampf can be found <a href="http://smogcheck.ca.gov/StdPage.asp?Body=/Geninfo/Publications/Engine_Change_Guidelines-Jan_1994.htm" target="_blank">here.</a>

Thanks for all the info Steve, you have given me a bunch of stuff to think about, and probably raised my rebuild budget substantially.

Tom

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

[quote]Originally posted by emcon5:
<strong>

The problem is when they punch your car into the computer, it gives the tech a list of stuff to look for.

Following the letter of the law, it is illegal to install anything other than the original factory parts, unless the manufacturer has jumped through the apropriate <a href="http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/topforms.htm" target="_blank">beaurocratic hoops</a>. They would probably never catch it, but this includes pistons, cams, etc. The reason Thom F. failed his smog check after his 3.6 swap and had to take his car to a referee was the tech getting confused by the ignition system. (I believe a direct quote is "I am not knowing why your car is having 2 distributors") Full text of the smog gestapo's Mein Kampf can be found <a href="http://smogcheck.ca.gov/StdPage.asp?Body=/Geninfo/Publications/Engine_Change_Guidelines-Jan_1994.htm" target="_blank">here.</a>

Thanks for all the info Steve, you have given me a bunch of stuff to think about, and probably raised my rebuild budget substantially.

Tom</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Tom:

Thanks for the clarification. Given what is at stake with the poor gasoline you have, I'd sure do whatever I could do about getting the 3.6 distributor approved for your car. Perhaps Mr. Fitzpatrick's experiences with his smog referee helps set precedent.

LOL,.....My deepest apologies about helping raise your budget, however as part of my "Prime Directive" about helping people get maximum performance for the money, this seems to be a common side effect,....

In the long run, you will be much happier.

catuck

I have to say I feel really bad for all of you California people. Sure the weather is nice, but here in New England we don't have nearly the problems you do with emissions testing.

I could put a Chevy 454 with straight pipes in my P car and sail through inspection here in Rhode Island! Of course I would never do that, but I can put a 3.6 in and only worry about my wallet.

The simple answer to you problem is to move here and drive your car three months out of the year!

JackOlsen

...or get a pre-74 911, and drive year round with anything you want in it.

Bill Verburg

Some states have 25 yr law. Check you loacal DMV regs.