Sudden brake fading at VIR
05-19-2005, 11:10 AM
#31
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Thanks Pete,
I am putting together an order now, hoses, pads, cooling kit, rotors. I have a credit I'll burn with Mid America. The rest I will get between now and my next event. Rennsport gets first shot. Like I said Steve I remember.
Reg
I am putting together an order now, hoses, pads, cooling kit, rotors. I have a credit I'll burn with Mid America. The rest I will get between now and my next event. Rennsport gets first shot. Like I said Steve I remember.
Reg
05-20-2005, 10:43 AM
#33
stock is plenty.
Hoses, rotors, fluid, good pads and practice! I was going to jump in a couple of days ago but I was driving almost 10 hours in two days at Watkins Glen and I will testify that stock (well maintained) Carrara brakes are above the lmits of 99% of the drivers that are using them. Just fix em and go find out what they will do.
IMHO we spend too much money, and time talking about how to go faster. Let a pro drive your car, and you will know for sure that "it aint the car"!!!!!
IMHO we spend too much money, and time talking about how to go faster. Let a pro drive your car, and you will know for sure that "it aint the car"!!!!!
05-20-2005, 11:16 AM
#34
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Originally Posted by Alan Goettel
IMHO we spend too much money, and time talking about how to go faster.
Don't want to go faster right now. Just want to stop faster. Again and again and again and . . .
Reg
05-20-2005, 11:20 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by afinepoint
Don't want to go faster right now. Just want to stop faster. Again and again and again and . . .
05-20-2005, 05:09 PM
#36
[QUOTE=Alan Goettel]"I was driving almost 10 hours in two days at Watkins Glen" Open Track back to back 30 miniute run sessions with 5 min cool down in between. If that is not again and again then absolutely nothing is.
"IMHO we spend too much money, and time talking about how to go faster" if you can't stop, you cant go fast . " Let a pro drive your car, and you will know for sure that "it aint the car" Or any good F class racer!!!!!, Big brakes are nice but I'd rather spend the money learning to use the ones I have.
"IMHO we spend too much money, and time talking about how to go faster" if you can't stop, you cant go fast . " Let a pro drive your car, and you will know for sure that "it aint the car" Or any good F class racer!!!!!, Big brakes are nice but I'd rather spend the money learning to use the ones I have.
05-20-2005, 08:04 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by Noel
Wow, just as thick as the the GTPs. Interesting. Many thanks Steve. I'll call YOU when I'm ready fior the change!
LOL,...Thats why I like this setup; LOTS of thermal reserve and thats the real key to having functional brakes for the track.
05-20-2005, 08:49 PM
#38
F troop lives w/ stockers because they all have the same problem and they have to. Non stock class cars can and ought to do something about it.
Additional info here
Having too big a rotor does absorb energy that could go into acceleration(either + or -) but everything is a compromise and I would happily be a little slower if I was sure that the brakes would always be there.
What you need is highly dependant on the weight and performance potential of a chassis and driver
Usually the 20mm rotors are good to ~200hp and ~2000#, the 24s are incrementally better and the 32s whether 304 or 322 won't be very stressed at all untill you get a souped up 930
As Steve said brake component life is greatly extended when temps are kept down. THis directly translates into reduced operating expenses.
Additional info here
Having too big a rotor does absorb energy that could go into acceleration(either + or -) but everything is a compromise and I would happily be a little slower if I was sure that the brakes would always be there.
What you need is highly dependant on the weight and performance potential of a chassis and driver
Usually the 20mm rotors are good to ~200hp and ~2000#, the 24s are incrementally better and the 32s whether 304 or 322 won't be very stressed at all untill you get a souped up 930
As Steve said brake component life is greatly extended when temps are kept down. THis directly translates into reduced operating expenses.
05-21-2005, 12:02 AM
#39
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[QUOTE=Alan Goettel]
I agree with you Alan alot can be spent of upgrades that are probably beyond the driver or worse are just for show. Too me the latter is a real waste of time and money. But look around at what is going up and down the road and the track.
Standard brakes are very good but are not in the league of their bigger kin.
While the OEMs did well at the track I noticed that brake fading for all caused driving style to change as the laps went by. You could see it and even the instructors pointed it out. The brakes like mine and others showed their fading earlier causing shifting/delaying from turn 1 to turns 2 and 3 or beyond.
The bigger boys held their line throughout the run. Skill - yes. Brakes mainly since the skill level was made equal.
Not that we were racing and not that I am anywhere near that level but it is a fact that races have been won and lost on braking alone.
When you need it you can never have enough insurance or margin to safety and that is something we are talking about here along with performance.
Stepping on the track is like going into the woods. You know what you should expect and your capabilities but the unexpected can happen. An expert shot could make due with a 32. I would rather have the added margin of a 44.
Reg
Originally Posted by Alan Goettel
"I was driving almost 10 hours in two days at Watkins Glen" Open Track back to back 30 miniute run sessions with 5 min cool down in between. If that is not again and again then absolutely nothing is.
"IMHO we spend too much money, and time talking about how to go faster" if you can't stop, you cant go fast . "
"IMHO we spend too much money, and time talking about how to go faster" if you can't stop, you cant go fast . "
I agree with you Alan alot can be spent of upgrades that are probably beyond the driver or worse are just for show. Too me the latter is a real waste of time and money. But look around at what is going up and down the road and the track.
Standard brakes are very good but are not in the league of their bigger kin.
While the OEMs did well at the track I noticed that brake fading for all caused driving style to change as the laps went by. You could see it and even the instructors pointed it out. The brakes like mine and others showed their fading earlier causing shifting/delaying from turn 1 to turns 2 and 3 or beyond.
The bigger boys held their line throughout the run. Skill - yes. Brakes mainly since the skill level was made equal.
Not that we were racing and not that I am anywhere near that level but it is a fact that races have been won and lost on braking alone.
When you need it you can never have enough insurance or margin to safety and that is something we are talking about here along with performance.
Stepping on the track is like going into the woods. You know what you should expect and your capabilities but the unexpected can happen. An expert shot could make due with a 32. I would rather have the added margin of a 44.
Reg
05-21-2005, 09:31 AM
#40
Great site Bill!
My point was probably misplaced on this issue. Steve (and Bill) is as always, "spot on". I will probably race F stock, and in retrospect it, is living with the brakes.
Reg your point is well made, I do have to vary my approach in long run sessions or at tracks that stress brakes more (like VIR or WGI). It also beats the crap out of the components.
My frustration is partly from being slow and poor. So many other track junkies in the North East are running full race suspensions with (Hoosiers) tires and wheels after 10 track days. There is is something to be said for maximizing what you have, but brakes are probably not the point to make a case.
Alan
My point was probably misplaced on this issue. Steve (and Bill) is as always, "spot on". I will probably race F stock, and in retrospect it, is living with the brakes.
Reg your point is well made, I do have to vary my approach in long run sessions or at tracks that stress brakes more (like VIR or WGI). It also beats the crap out of the components.
My frustration is partly from being slow and poor. So many other track junkies in the North East are running full race suspensions with (Hoosiers) tires and wheels after 10 track days. There is is something to be said for maximizing what you have, but brakes are probably not the point to make a case.
Alan
05-21-2005, 05:30 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by Alan Goettel
Great site Bill!
My frustration is partly from being slow and poor.
Alan
My frustration is partly from being slow and poor.
Alan
I hear you brother. I have two teenagers entering college and another not far behind. Kids, house, bills and car. Guess which is always last.
Reg
05-17-2006, 07:00 PM
#42
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Weighing your advice and my options - desire on one side and $$$ on the other I put original Zimmermans back on with Performance Friction 97 pads last night. I want to do one change at a time. Lets see what the 97's can do with new rotors and new brake fluid. No air induction cooling for the rotors for now.
I spoke at length with Performance Friction, Pelican, Applied Rotor Technology, OG Racing and local shop reps. The arguement for cryogenic rotors for the 911 did not win me over. As for pads the Porformance and one or two others floated to the top. I was impressed by the Performace rep. Fifteen minites + on the telephone and he even let me know that OG had a better price than him.
Thanks for all the input. I'll be on the full course at VIR Fri through Sun. I post how the brakes performed.
Next upgrade - the intake.
Reg
I spoke at length with Performance Friction, Pelican, Applied Rotor Technology, OG Racing and local shop reps. The arguement for cryogenic rotors for the 911 did not win me over. As for pads the Porformance and one or two others floated to the top. I was impressed by the Performace rep. Fifteen minites + on the telephone and he even let me know that OG had a better price than him.
Thanks for all the input. I'll be on the full course at VIR Fri through Sun. I post how the brakes performed.
Next upgrade - the intake.
Reg
05-17-2006, 07:33 PM
#43
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That is the exact setup I run (but with cool brake kit). Works great and has for many years. You should still plan to bleed your brakes after each track day, or sooner if they start to feel spongy. Get a cool brake kit next. I assume that you replaced your 25 y/o lines...
I'd love to have bigger brakes just for reserve purposes, but mine have worked fine with PFC 97 pads, good fluid, a cool brake kit and regular maintenance.
The PFC tech support people are great. I have spoken with them many times over the last ten years. They have always given me great advice and are always willing to spend as much time with you as necessary.
Jeff
I'd love to have bigger brakes just for reserve purposes, but mine have worked fine with PFC 97 pads, good fluid, a cool brake kit and regular maintenance.
The PFC tech support people are great. I have spoken with them many times over the last ten years. They have always given me great advice and are always willing to spend as much time with you as necessary.
Jeff
05-17-2006, 08:01 PM
#44
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Jeff,
New braided (DOT approved) lines are on the living room floor. I don't have time to change them. More so I don't want to do anything risky so close to an event. I will change then later.
Reg
New braided (DOT approved) lines are on the living room floor. I don't have time to change them. More so I don't want to do anything risky so close to an event. I will change then later.
Reg
05-17-2006, 08:20 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by afinepoint
Weighing your advice and my options - desire on one side and $$$ on the other I put original Zimmermans back on with Performance Friction 97 pads last night. I want to do one change at a time. Lets see what the 97's can do with new rotors and new brake fluid. No air induction cooling for the rotors for now.
Reg
Reg
