88 911 Coupe - to whale tail or not to whale tail...
03-21-2002, 05:28 AM
#16
I hear that the MA Shaw, <a href="http://www.mashaw.com," target="_blank">www.mashaw.com,</a> advert in Excellence, one piece tail is an excellent tail. Many people have said the quality of MA Shaws work is excellent and requires very little to no work to paint as opposed to the average aftermarket. I think they offer the one piece tail for $450 in their Excellence ad.
I love the look of the spoilers on most 911's. I just need to get enough extra money to put a tail on mine. Especially since it came with a front spoiler.
I love the look of the spoilers on most 911's. I just need to get enough extra money to put a tail on mine. Especially since it came with a front spoiler.
03-21-2002, 09:19 AM
#17
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Just chiming in ...
I prefer the no-tail classic look. I guess that pegs me into the non-track/non-racing category. I see lots of ricers with lots of add-ons. I'm not interested in entering that fray. Just having street fun with a beautiful and classic street race car.
I prefer the no-tail classic look. I guess that pegs me into the non-track/non-racing category. I see lots of ricers with lots of add-ons. I'm not interested in entering that fray. Just having street fun with a beautiful and classic street race car.
03-21-2002, 09:44 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
SteveR:
I would make a trip to the Hershey Swap meet on April 20. There will be plenty of tails for sale. You should easily be able to find a factory tail, attached to a factory decklid for a reasonable price. That way you could keep your original lid in case you decide you prefer the car without the tail. You may even get lucky and find on in Venitian Blue.
I agree with you, Jack Olsen's car is pretty cool. I like the 964 decklid on the early body. Looks great!
I would make a trip to the Hershey Swap meet on April 20. There will be plenty of tails for sale. You should easily be able to find a factory tail, attached to a factory decklid for a reasonable price. That way you could keep your original lid in case you decide you prefer the car without the tail. You may even get lucky and find on in Venitian Blue.
I agree with you, Jack Olsen's car is pretty cool. I like the 964 decklid on the early body. Looks great!
03-21-2002, 11:08 AM
#19
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I have heard (or read) that non-spoilered 911s have a higher top speed (all other variables being equal). If spoilers = less lift via the creation of downforce, which is convertable into drag, then this would be the case. Of course, narrow bodies w/ narrow wheels (not trying to create a rush on old 6x15 Fuchs...) would also yield higher top speed, at the cost of aero-stability. Any comments from those who have spent time tuning their Cd at Bonneville?
03-21-2002, 11:56 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
In Frere's book, The 911 Story, (A must read for all with the exception of Porsche poseurs)he explains the origin and purpose of the duck and whale tail, and it all comes down to one word, airfoil. Your 911 (san whale tail) has the side profile of an airfoil (an airplane wing). The faster you push the car, the lighter it gets, to approximately 400 Lbs. ligher at maximum speed. This was measured at Porsche's Weissach Test Facility in their wind tunnel where a 911 was placed, mounted on suspended scales. They ran progressivewly more air over the car and discovered at maximum speed, the car was 400 lbs. lighter pre-whale tail in contrast to the whale tail and front chin spoiler iteration of the car. This was with the 76 Turbo tail and chin spoiler set up we have all become so familiar with. The duck tail helped, but not as much as the whale tail.
NOTE: You do NOT want your car to be lighter at high speeds, especially if there is the possibility of a cross wind. At high speed, if you are hit with a cross wind, you may do an involuntary lane change, with potentially disasterous results. I have heard first hand reports of the lane change phenomena occuring at Willow Springs Raceway, in Turn 8, a high speed sweeper, 120 mph+. Willow Springs is in the high desert and winds and cross winds do come up nearly every afternoon. I have not personally experienced this as I have only driven this track with a tail on my car.
In addition, if you are doing any high speed track work, with more of the cars weight on the ground, the car will be more responsive to turning inputs..this is a very good thing, we want those cars to turn in. A non responsive turn in, is for all intents and purposes, understeer. We don't want understeer at speed, no, no. And by the way, a car with a front chin spoiler and no tale, is potentially inducing over steer, with proportionalely more weight on the front of the car, less on the back, the rear end may develop a mind of its own, and respond to steering input with oversteer...this is NOT good at high speed. When you install spoilers, they must be installed as a pair if you want the car to remain balanced at speed. I certainly do!
If you don't like the cosmetic looks of the tail, that is certainly a reason not to install it. If you don't want people from 7 to 70 saying when they see your car, "COOL!", that's OK too. And be real here, a Porsche car is always going to get looks, tail or no tail. It goes with the territory.
Me...I'll take the increased stability at high speeds and just love seeing people eat their hearts out over my car. My prior car was a 80SC Weissach Coupe with a tail and chin spoiler, very cool indeed. My present 97 Carrera has the deployable tail that is soon to be replaced with a 993RS aero package, front chin spoiler, side skirts and rear spoiler, always deployed and ready for action. In addition, the San Diego PCA has a 2 day drivers education event at the California Speedway, with over a mile of straight with banked turns. This is a great spot to have a tail and chin spoiler!
An finally, install the correct tail on your car with the appropriate chin spoiler. THose folks at Weissach know more than we do. They have designed specific spoilers, fron and rear, for specific cars. Let the spoilers do their work for you and the car...as they say in contracts, let the product be "fit for the particular purpose for which it was intended." Weissach didn't intend a 930 Turbo tail to be installed on a SC. That god awful hump in the 78 and later tail is there to allow for an intercooler, nothing more. And these tails look ugly as hell on anything but a 930 wide body car, IMHO, of course.
If you really want to know more on tails and other aerodynamic aids, read Carroll Smith's book, Tune to Win. The subject of aerodynamics is discussed in great detail, far more than in Frere's book. You need both books in your library, IMHO, of course. Smith's book is the Bible. If you are going to the track, your competition does not want you to read it, enough said.
Get a little tail in your life, they say once you have had one, you'll never go back! And so concludes the tale of the tail <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> ...I better get to work or my tail will soon be kicked! I need the damn job for racing money
!!! Don't lift off the gas in the corners, and you'll then be keeping the shinny side up!!!
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
NOTE: You do NOT want your car to be lighter at high speeds, especially if there is the possibility of a cross wind. At high speed, if you are hit with a cross wind, you may do an involuntary lane change, with potentially disasterous results. I have heard first hand reports of the lane change phenomena occuring at Willow Springs Raceway, in Turn 8, a high speed sweeper, 120 mph+. Willow Springs is in the high desert and winds and cross winds do come up nearly every afternoon. I have not personally experienced this as I have only driven this track with a tail on my car.
In addition, if you are doing any high speed track work, with more of the cars weight on the ground, the car will be more responsive to turning inputs..this is a very good thing, we want those cars to turn in. A non responsive turn in, is for all intents and purposes, understeer. We don't want understeer at speed, no, no. And by the way, a car with a front chin spoiler and no tale, is potentially inducing over steer, with proportionalely more weight on the front of the car, less on the back, the rear end may develop a mind of its own, and respond to steering input with oversteer...this is NOT good at high speed. When you install spoilers, they must be installed as a pair if you want the car to remain balanced at speed. I certainly do!
If you don't like the cosmetic looks of the tail, that is certainly a reason not to install it. If you don't want people from 7 to 70 saying when they see your car, "COOL!", that's OK too. And be real here, a Porsche car is always going to get looks, tail or no tail. It goes with the territory.
Me...I'll take the increased stability at high speeds and just love seeing people eat their hearts out over my car. My prior car was a 80SC Weissach Coupe with a tail and chin spoiler, very cool indeed. My present 97 Carrera has the deployable tail that is soon to be replaced with a 993RS aero package, front chin spoiler, side skirts and rear spoiler, always deployed and ready for action. In addition, the San Diego PCA has a 2 day drivers education event at the California Speedway, with over a mile of straight with banked turns. This is a great spot to have a tail and chin spoiler!
An finally, install the correct tail on your car with the appropriate chin spoiler. THose folks at Weissach know more than we do. They have designed specific spoilers, fron and rear, for specific cars. Let the spoilers do their work for you and the car...as they say in contracts, let the product be "fit for the particular purpose for which it was intended." Weissach didn't intend a 930 Turbo tail to be installed on a SC. That god awful hump in the 78 and later tail is there to allow for an intercooler, nothing more. And these tails look ugly as hell on anything but a 930 wide body car, IMHO, of course.
If you really want to know more on tails and other aerodynamic aids, read Carroll Smith's book, Tune to Win. The subject of aerodynamics is discussed in great detail, far more than in Frere's book. You need both books in your library, IMHO, of course. Smith's book is the Bible. If you are going to the track, your competition does not want you to read it, enough said.
Get a little tail in your life, they say once you have had one, you'll never go back! And so concludes the tale of the tail <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> ...I better get to work or my tail will soon be kicked! I need the damn job for racing money
!!! Don't lift off the gas in the corners, and you'll then be keeping the shinny side up!!!<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
03-21-2002, 01:29 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I forgot to say in my original message that I don't track my car, so I wouldn't need the Carrera Whale Tail for ultra high speed, it would purely be for looks. I saw a guards red 88 911 yesterday in the rain at a light, and it certainly looked "aggressive" with that tail on it. With my subdued, convervative Venetian Blue color, I honestly can't decide if I'd love it or hate it? I don't want to draw TOO much attention. I wish there were a right or wrong answer about what to do, but I know it's truly subjective. The votes have come about about even.
I did go to a DE once at Summit Point after I had an accident in the rain shortly after I bought the car 4 years ago. It happened on a straightaway here in Washington DC! I floored it just a bit after a light rain had started early in the morning on a Saturday and the whole damn car spun around and I ended up totally out of control and on the median strip staring at an 18 wheeler in the other lane coming right at me! I quickly gained control and hobbled over to the right side of the road again. $6000 in damage later (some wheels, new tires, and tie rods - luckily no paintwork needed).
The high speed driving at the driver's ed sort of freaked me out. I couldn't believe my car would willingly go that fast and be able to take the turns that well without rolling over from the G forces, or just simply spinning out and losing control. After that accident in the rain, I've always been terrified of a reoccurence and losing the back end. A fellow 911 owner I met at the repair shop told me one day after it happened, "trailing throttle oversteer - learn it, live it", or something like that!
I did go to a DE once at Summit Point after I had an accident in the rain shortly after I bought the car 4 years ago. It happened on a straightaway here in Washington DC! I floored it just a bit after a light rain had started early in the morning on a Saturday and the whole damn car spun around and I ended up totally out of control and on the median strip staring at an 18 wheeler in the other lane coming right at me! I quickly gained control and hobbled over to the right side of the road again. $6000 in damage later (some wheels, new tires, and tie rods - luckily no paintwork needed).
The high speed driving at the driver's ed sort of freaked me out. I couldn't believe my car would willingly go that fast and be able to take the turns that well without rolling over from the G forces, or just simply spinning out and losing control. After that accident in the rain, I've always been terrified of a reoccurence and losing the back end. A fellow 911 owner I met at the repair shop told me one day after it happened, "trailing throttle oversteer - learn it, live it", or something like that!
