Chris Bennet

I have the Service manual "Club Sport - Version INFORMATION TECHNIK" manual so I'm familiar with the equipement list/differences. I just didn't want to appear pedantic by listing them. You are right, there are quite few differences from lighter wiring harness to no undercoating.

With exception of the intake valves, rev limit and the shocks, all the differences are equipment deletions (no coat hooks, no fog lights, etc) or "downgrades" (cloth instead of leather) in the interest of making the car lighter. This is where the question of value might have been a factor. Undoubtably, the normal Porsche buyer values comfort so you are at least partially right on that score.

I would be curious to know what the weight difference is between a CS and a US option delete car you could have (special) ordered from the dealer? Even the weight of a 1988 Euro car without sunroof or AC would be nice to know.
CS curb weight: 2557 lbs (1160kg)
Option delete car: ? lbs
Euro w/out sunroof or AC: ? lbs

-Chris

r911

I thought they had light wt. intake valves and a bit higher redline?

But I agree, there are few differences other than the removal of various items. Thus, the "value" would be that it is an original Porsche stock item... doesn't get me excited, but I'm glad others are preserving them.

The '73 RS cars were much different from the S of that year, esp. the light wt. ones.

Morty

OK, hate to be a besserwisser, but:

-clock delete? no
-sticker instead of badge of the hood? no (it did come with a "swoosh"-sticker on the front left fender!)

I had a certificate from the official Swedish inspection authority that said my CS weighed 1,190 kg with a full tank of gas.

Chris Bennet

Oh Doh! I must have been having a Senior Moment, I remember reading someplace that they didn't have the clock or front badge. The '73 RS didn't have the clock and the CS didn't have the rear metal script.
-Chris

Steve W

I suspect that part of the Clubsport blueprinting for U.S. cars is to make sure they have the spec 9.5:1 CR. Most U.S. spec 3.2 motors actually measure out at only 8.8-8.9 CR, and standard Euro 3.2 typically measure out at 8.9:1 CR instead of spec 10.3:1 and thus when comparing dyno sheets of the two motors, a Clubsport motor seems to put out about 6-7 hp more than your standard motor.

BJJones

The lighweight cars seemed to be not very well recieved in the States, however in the UK these type of cars were and still are very very popular.

I think in the UK we are less worried about the comfort items that are essential in the US? the M3 LTW would have gone down very well in the UK but we only got the GT that went down very well.

epbrown01

BJJ, that seems to be the case. Over here, people seem to say "$45k and no air conditioning or power seats?!" looking more at the price than the purpose of the car. People here lament that the RS 2.7 wasn't sold over here, but I have serious doubts it would have been well recieved. Europeans cut weight for more performance, Americans add displacement.

Emanuel

TaylorSea4

Neat cars, in my opinion. But before you guys throw too many stones towards this side of the pond, realize for a minute how difficult it might be to sell a $45K sportscar to a guy in Florida or Texas or Arizona with no A/C. Just saying the phrase "A/C delete" makes me sweat. But yeah, there never was a big demand for delete cars until the RS America came along, and even then we get the watered down version.

I look at today's crop of uber cars and wonder just how much cheaper the GT3 or a Z06 would be without all the power nick-nacks and cd players and climate control. Not to mention just plain better. That seems to be the key, though; can you strip costs with all those parts? The 964 RSA was such a hit because it WAS cheaper. It seems silly to ask the same (or MORE in the case of the GT3) price of the base model with lower end parts, don't it?

Emanuel, you're probably half right about the RS's chances here in the states, but you have to look at the culture of the day in the early '70's. Hot rod Detroit iron ruled the day, Datsun was setting the road courses on fire with the Z cars, and gas was cheap everywhere you looked. I think that car would have sold well, albeit behind the muscle cars of the day.

epbrown01

Though I was 10 in the early 70s, I recall that when I grew up there were only 2 sports cars - Camaros and Mustangs, so I understand the bias towards displacement and Detroit iron. We're the land of "bigger is better" and that means we don't pay more for less - hence the poor sales of the Club Sport, the 968 Club Sport, and BMW's new M3 CSL. Our countrymen sure as heck wouldn't have shelled out more for a lightweight RS when you could get all sorts of serious muscle cars for less, along with the 911S and Ferrari Dino 246GTB. Heck, can't say it's changed much even now - the guys old enough to drive back then are driving up the prices of Detroit iron at auctions today, while the RS and Dino remain stable/stagnant.

Emanuel

TaylorSea4

Yeah, true, Emanuel. My brother in law owns a Monte Carlo SS big block. Loves the car, and I admit it is cool-fun. I was visiting him and my sister this past Thanksgiving, and he was showing me all sorts of cool muscle cars he might want to add, and then I showed him some R Gruppe 911 hot rods and RS clones. Needless to say, he's REALLY rethinking things his next purchase.

SRL

I think this might be a good reason to have paid a premium for "less car" back in 1987:

What was the premium paid new? $0? And an equally good "normal" Carrera would be worth about $30K. Seems like these cars were INDEED good, dare I say excellent, values.



The lightweight also benefitted from BMW pulling the "strongest of the strong" motors for use in the production run, as well. Plus, if you installed that spoiler kit, it voided the warranty! That's why it was shipped in the trunk.....

purrybonker

To my mind the words "value" and "Porsche" are pretty much exclusive of each other. If you want to own/drive a CS - go for it, but I would stop short of trying to rationalize doing so as a value or an investment proposition any more than any other Porsche purchase.

We have all these conflicting forces at play in our minds (particularily men) in making these kinds of buying decisions. We want what we want - even recognizing that such desire is stupid and wasteful - yet we still try to layer on a "value proposition" into the buying rationale.

Like all those postings we see here and on the Pelican board.

Question: "Gee, is $45 grand a good price for a low miles '89 turbo cab?"

Four Hundred Various Answers Kinda Say: "Well it probably is - but make sure you get a PPI - or you will surely risk significant financial and emotional rapage."

To my way of thinking buying an '89 turbo cab is pretty much like tossing $45 grand in the garbage from a real "value" perspective - why would we place so much importance on the risk of overpaying the market by a few grand or being faced with a $5 grand top end job by not getting a PPI? No problem tossing $45 grand - but the incremental dollars give us sleepless nights?

Want value? Buy a Toyota. Want to be a self-indulgent and weak? Buy the Porsche. Admit and celebrate your self-indulgence and weakness - don't try to bury it under a buncha "value rationalizations". If you can afford the turbo cab but not the top-end job - shop for something else.

So in context of the CS - I'd rather drive the 911 with the sunroof, cruise, air, etc., let alone paying a premium for a car that lacks these items. If you really, really want a CS - get one. But don't do it on the "greater fool" principle of arguing value where none really exists. That can work for speculating in equities and realestate - not for trading in cars.

spydr32000

These are a fantastic car a client of ours has one, it was an English car, now living in Melbourne. They were about 100 kilos lighter than a std 3.2 Carrera, no back seat just a shelf, manual windows, less insulation, different tuning, a blue printed engine, engine block and heads were marked with SP (special production). I believe there were only 250 made, this makes them a very rare car, and for those who know, VERY desirable!
Regards Mike

TomTurtle

Yep, that must be Mark C's CS. Mark just sent me a nice DVD of his East Coast Targa and Mt. Buller runs. Great video and very interesting! The Bushworth circuit (especially the upper part) looks like a lot of fun!

epbrown01

I totally disagree with your definition of value, and the idea that simply owning a Porsche is weak and self-indulgent. It has these creepy overtones of group-think, saying that a Toyota would me everyone's needs.

Emanuel