umfan866

Wanting to know if this is worth looking at in person... the car is being shown tp a group of interested buyers this Saturday in the Bay Area. Have gotten many of these details on the phone.

1978 Porsche SC fs, 2nd owner. Original color dark brown, painted black by rock-band (1st) owner in the 80s. Numbers all match w/ certificate of authenticity available. Car has 189k w/ complete top end rebuild 12k ago. Engine has all recommended upgrades and some additional updating as well (chain suspensioners, etc). Recently tuned and has new clutch, all for 4k. Over last 10 years 2nd owner has put 13k of upgrades into car, mostly for going on the track (note-the interior is intact like new, not made into a race car--the tracking is just a weekend hobby). Ie the 2nd owner has put in super-firm suspension from a newer Carrera with sway bars, Brembo brakes, etc. Air conditioning is not working - compressor was tossed to save weight. Owner says that car is mechanically very good w/ firm suspension and motor well maintained all along, and recently dialed in. 2nd owner believes to make car in tip-top shape it still may need new paint soon, window motor repair, one stitch in leather, new rear seat since it was damaged by previous owner's massive subwoofer since removed, misc other stuff totalling to 5k. Current owner a Porschephile who insists that new owner check it out and get a PPI done before purchase.

For the car in its present state with mechanics excellent he is asking 14k but in conversation said that the estimate of a professional mechanic who looks at it might come out between 10-14k, thus those may be his low/high acceptable bids (my own opinion).

Thanks for your comments.

Dan in Pasadena

I am not yet a 911 guy, but I am studying hard, watching the market, gathering info and honing my 911 price savvy. My very non-expert oinion is that the price is too high. From your description I envision a hard-driven-by-a-wanna-be-rock-star kinda car. Just what I'd avoid.

The best advice I keep hearing is to buy the best original, all/near all receipts, one or two owner 911 you can find, NOT the best you can afford. Borrow the extra money if you must (within reason) but buy the best one you can get, regardless of era you prefer. I keep finding cars with stories and while I have been tempted again and again, in the long run I don't think I will regret not settling.

JackOlsen

High-mileage SC without a full rebuild on the motor, with Carrera suspension parts and a non-original-color repaint?

I'm no expert, but the price seems high (by like a factor of two).

bones

Sway-bars (anti-roll bars) are stock on SCs. I smell a rat.

earlyapex

IMO, $14k is too much to pay for this car. The milage is not unusual for a car of this vintage, but you can find many lower milage cars with patience. You need to find out exactly what the owner had done during the top end rebuild as this car is probably close to a complete rebuild given its milage. The track use makes me worried as this significantly stresses all of the car's major components and is something that generally detracts from a car's value.

My 78SC had 98,000 miles on it when I bought it.

umfan866

OK thanks everyone (again).

emcon5

Huh? Anyone who only does a top end on a engine with 177K miles is a grade-A knucklehead. Doing the bottom end is an extra ~$500 in parts, and isn't that much more work, and at that mileage it is getting close to time anyway. The engine is out, it is stripped down to the case anyway, not doing the bottom end is false economy.

Makes me wonder what other corners were cut.

Tom

911Dave

"Upgrades" do not increase the value of a 911, they decrease it. The only exceptions would be ones that correct obvious deficiencies, like 5-blade fans and oil-fed tensioners.

Rear seat destroyed by a massive subwoofer? This is not a car that was well cared for.

The best 78 SC you will find is one that is all original, no upgrades except Carrera tensioners, all original paint, under 100k miles, only minor signs of wear, and full maintenance history and receipts going back to the day it was driven off the dealer lot. Such cars exist, and if you find one, it will be worth no more than $10-11k. Given all the issues of the one you're considering, I wouldn't pay more than $5-6k for it.

Peter Zimmermann

It would be interesting to check the VIN - I looked at a car very much like you describe (brown redone to black) about 2 years ago in WLA (it was represented as an '80 in the ad, but the car was a '79 with a missing smog pump). I spent 10 minutes and decided I wouldn't pay $8K for it. Same car? Who knows, but I don't like the general "story". About "firm" Carrera suspension - all that was done (probably) was replace the sway bars (anti-roll) with '86 Carrera bars. They help high speed lane change recovery, etc, and it's a common thing to do (I've probably done at least 20 cars that way). Don't always trust a mechanic's valuation, mechanics fix cars, they usually don't make money selling them. Some pay attention, but some offer advice that's no more accurate than idle speculation. Hope this helps...
Pete

umfan866

Peter- The 1st owner of the car was Mickey Hart of the grateful dead--
http://www.arielpublicity.com/mickey_hart/press_1.html so I don't know
if this car was ever a SoCal car since I am not a Grateful Dead fan. Apparently he was the one that had the paint changed to black from brown. There are no service records on this car from that era. Apparently there was all sorts of "subwoofer stuff" or big box in the back seat that the 2nd (current) owner ripped out because he liked the sound of the engine more.

In regards to the engine rebuild, it apparently was a top end rebuild with something extra (pistons?) but not described as a full rebuild. Tensionners are part of the upgrades that were done on the engine. The sway bars (and/or possibly other suspension parts, not sure) were apparently swapped out /traded with a newer Carrera owner who liked the softer suspension parts of the '78, not bougtht new.

umfan866

Here is a link to the add with pictures:
http://www.craigslist.org/sfc/car/50347570.html

richard glickel

Pass on this one. Keep lookin', you'll find a better car.

Richard
'87 CarreraRS-3.6L, widebody
'93 968 coupe, track car
'95 986 coupe, dunno what I'm doing with this yet

Peter Zimmermann

umfan: Yeah, it sounds a little scary. However, I believe that a "top end" can be done on a high mileage SC with reasonable success. It does make more sense to do a complete at just under 200K miles, but I've had engines apart on my bench at that mileage and found them to still be well within wear tolerances. It is possible to replace the rod bearings without splitting the case, followed with new head studs and a complete valve job. I've found piston/cylinders still within wear tolerance at that mileage, but NOT often. Re-ringing is not an option on piston/cylinder sets that are outside wear limits. The big gain from doing the bottom end is oil leak prevention, mostly at #8 main bearing. Another issue that usually must be dealt with is camshaft lobe pitting and worn rocker arms. I don't believe in re-grinds, preferring to replace cams with new o.e. units. All in all, I don't like color-change cars. Is the interior of that car a funky two-tone brown/black?
Pete

umfan866

Peter-Thanks for your comments. The seller has now re-posted with a lot of details. Looks like the head-studs were replaced with the top-end job. The interior color is described as cork. Marvin.

http://www.craigslist.org/nby/car/51925643.html (text posted below for archival
purposed when the link w/ pictures disappears)

********************************************************************
1978 Porsche 911 SC Coupe, 3.0 liter, 5 speed, limited slip, Black (not original) with Tan (Cork) partial leather interior. Sunroof, power windows and mirrors. Non-Smoker, I’m the second owner and have had it for over 6 years spending over $12K in upgrades and restoration, plus scheduled maintenance. The chassis has 189K miles on it and under 12K miles on a full top-end refresh including new head studs. Numbers match. Just had its 30K mile tune-up performed and it passed smog in September.

It's never been in an accident of any kind since I've owned it and I've not seen any rust. I think the rear driver side quarter panel was re-sprayed (nice job) before I had it, but I cannot can not verify that. I do know that the car has never been in a serious accident requiring major repairs, per my pre-purchase inspection results over 6 years ago.

Some things I would address if I was keeping it:
paint, stereo, window regulator, hood shocks, A/C compressor, seem-rip in passenger side seat, partially broken back seat, new heater fan, door hinge pins, new front tires (though there is plenty of tread left).

Aside from a paint job, I estimate the above items to cost between $1,500 - $1,800.

Overall interior condition: Good
Overall exterior condition: Fair to Good (paint is still very shiny)
Overall mechanical condition: Excellent

Despite its age and minor blemishes, this still looks and drives awesome = most people don't believe it's 26 years old. My mechanic (verifiable) tells me it's one of the fastest SC's he's ever driven. I can certainly testify to that.

This car is set up a little stiffer than stock and though the chassis has 189K miles on it, it drives and feels better than most 911's I've driven around 100K – due to all the suspension updates.

2004 market value per Excellent Magazine (Aug ’04 #130):
Between $11,760 for poor and $17,900 for excellent condition.

Asking: $14K

The car is in a private garage in Sausalito and I'll be showing it on Saturday and Sunday afternoons until it's sold.

Here's what I spent the $12K on upgrades and restoration, most receipts:

Engine:
Full top-end refresh including new head studs - less than 12K miles ago.
Chain tensioners
Clutch - less than 1000 miles
Factory Short Shift Kit
Starter
Alternator
Catalytic converter

Suspension:
Weltmeister tru-the-body front adj sway bar and rear adj sway bar
Front strut tower brace
Front sport Bilstein shocks
Adj Koni's on the rear
Factory Turbo tie rods
Front wheel bearings

Brakes:
Updated OEM calipers - front and rear
Brembo grooved rotors -front
Stainless brake lines
Less than 5000 miles on new pads

Wheels:
Factory OEM Fuchs 8X16 rear, 7X16 fronts

Call/email with questions.

********************************************************************

umfan866

Based on people's comments, sounds like for the same 14k
this white 1982 SC might be the better deal and a safer bet:

http://www.craigslist.org/sfc/car/50949840.html
1982 Porsche 911 SC - $14500
Immaculate condition 115,200 original documented miles. Purchased in San Francisco by a Marin Co dentist, I purchased the car 08/00 w/ 92,807 miles, car meticulously maintained always garaged. Chiffon color paint, no door dings or unrepaired damage, glossy paint, interior and dash has no sun damage, tan interior. Complete maintenance records, original purchase agreement, clear title in hand. Less than 10,000 miles ago the car received 4 Brembo cross drilled cadmium brake rotors, fresh brake pads, ATE Superblue brake fluid, oil pressure sending unit, engine insulation blanket, gear oil, rear tires and new door seals. Comes with Rockford Fosgate CD player, Boston Acoustic front speakers with seperate mids and tweeters, upgraded 6" rear speckers w/power amplifier all professionlly installed, seperate switch for power antennae. Older Clifford alarm. Very recent oil change and valve adjustment. Clean carfax