Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Hi Charlie:

I've not used the latest boxes from Mallory so I really cannot say for sure. If I get a chance, I'll try one on the dyno, back-to-back with the MSD 6AL and see what happens.

I've had several Crane Hi6 failures so I've stuck with the MSD's that has worked very well for me
for many years.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Hi Loren:

Thank you for your input, wisdom, & experience in this matter.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I'll defend your right to express yours.

r911

"at opposite ends of the same issue..."

From what I read of this, Steve is presenting his actual experience. My understanding is that he has been doing this for a while and has a decent sample size. So I would call it more than anecdotal reports, but not a fully controlled statistical sample as in a scientific study. More like a clinical study I'd say.

Loren is presenting some likely effects based on a mechanistic analysis - i.e. theory (and that's in a positive sense, not a prejorative one).

IF this was science, we would want to pursue both approaches and ultimately rationalise them. Then we would have a clear understanding (tho I hasten to add we still have people in some areas of the US who don't accept the data and theory for evolution).

Another important issue is bais - whether conscious or not. Loren rebuilds the Bosch CD boxes, and so competes economically with MSD and others. He wold be well advised to disclose this and to alter his manner - it only does him harm. Nontheless he does have valuable information about electronic ignition systems.

Now, an example: #4 I think, is the idea that more complexity means less reliability. This is an empirical generalization. It is often true but not always true. Suppose for example, that components are in parallel - then additional componenets means more reliability not less. Even when true, this effect may well be swamped by other effects, hence unimportant. For example, the MSD is a newer design than the 35 year old Bosch boxes. Are newly intorduced type components used? If so, they may well be more reliable than the old ones.
All this points up the importance of getting real world data -- experiments or something close to it.

RoninLB

afaik the voltage draw on plugs is dependent on the load. Any system that distorts timing will, among other things, distort the heat boundary layer in the whole combustion area. This boundary layer prevents burned pistons, valves, etc. I have found no evidence that the MSD, or the Permatune distorts ignition, thus EGT, in any way.

and fwiw I've seen tons of various ignitions come and go in favor over the years.. except a factory installed unit or the MSD.. whatever.

and for Mallory fans.. I've found that they released a return style fuel pressure regulator. It replaces the MAL-4309, and MAL-4310. The replacement is MAL-4307M, 200gal flow, 4-25 psi, three 3/8 ports, + 1/8 ga port, multi-fuel, lists about $190, retails about $90, re-build kit 3178.

enjoy...

theasphaltgambler

Isn't the MSD a CD unit with multiple spark? I believe their website states that. I think that after a certain RPM the spark is continiuous because of the speed of the ignition cycle.

I'm a Drag race guy. I have done a lot of American cars and bikes. My experience is that with MSD after the install the vehicles would pick up 4-6 hundredths of a sec with no other change. This conversion was on several cars that were very consistant. So I know that it did make a difference. In some cases it allowed slightly more jet in the carb and slightly less timing enabling further modest improvements.

My want is the rev limiting factor plus a better (I think) ignition. I lot of aftermarket components are better designed and perform better the OE.
Manufacturing is always cost first then weight. I'm sure that Porsche feels that their ignition is adequate, but is adequate good enough when you are pushing the limits of the combustion process by increasing comp ratio and cam overlap?

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Randy:

I would tell you that everything I've learned on this subject comes from hundreds & hundreds of hours on an engine dyno.

In these cases, one tries things like different ignition settings, equipment, plugs, plug gaps, etc and the dyno records the results. No mixture or other induction parameters are altered so no other variables are different during the tests. One tries one thing at a time and the dyno's instrumentation and software records the results. The dyno runs are all automated so there are no operator-induced factors.

Our Superflow engine dyno has a resolution of 2 HP so thats as small a difference I can accurately see.

I do not generally publish detailed dyno reports due to the competitive nature of our industry and these represent a VERY significant investment in time and capital.

All I can do is offer the general findings of many years of R&D and hopefully, someone reading this will find something useful.

Lorenfb

The facts I've presented "speak" for themselves!

Bryan Henry

Steve, or others. Not getting into the msd vs bosch discussion is their any real benifit in going to the electromotive crank set-up. My 69 911 has a 2.7 in it with 40 ida webers. This winter it gets a new backdated exhaust and a new ignition. The exhaust seems like an easy choice but ignition systems seem to run the gamut depending on who you talk to
Thanks

r911

Check out Steve's web page - re plug gaps and power gains from that.

BTW, it looks like a guy on Pelican is just about to start making a cheap way to get 12 wire dist. caps.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Bryan:

My best advice to you regarding ignitions for your carbureted 2.7 would be to run it with the OEM Bosch CD ignition and then try the MSD-6AL (and matching coil).

LOL,...In this fashion, you'll soon see the differences for yourself without having to decide who knows what they are talking about on this particular subject.

RoninLB

for entertainment purposes I bought 3 sets of NGK BPR 9 ES.
As soon as I do the Mallory install, ordered today, a set will be installed. I've been running 8 ES for a couple of thou and ithey're squeaky clean so I'm gonna push the limit on the coldest R NGK pulg that's street doable.. for some strange reason I think it may be doable this winter. Temps are starting to drop below 40deg.

btw.. I'm rich at 60 idles @ 2 1/2 turns & a modified rich acceleration circuit.
... cheap thrills

JBO

Is MSD the same as Permatune, or are they 2 different things?

Charles Navarro

Different. IMHO, the permatune is overpriced for what you get.

NP993

I've been running an MSD 6AL with its matching MSD coil for several years now, and am very happy with them. My MSD unit has been totally reliable; as Steve pointed out, properly installing it is vital.

This debate has been conducted a number of times over at Pelican, with Loren always holding out as the flat-earther of the board (as he also does with ECU chips). The simple reality is that Steve has decades of real-world experience tuning 911's, and knows firsthand what works and what doesn't. He has no financial stake whatsoever in MSD, and would not recommend the product unless it was a genuine improvement over the stock component.

Bryan Henry

Well the real reason for me changing is that my whole ignition needs replacing as far as I am cincerned. Todays technology is probaly better in 99% of all things made, thus I figure that the MSD unit must be better tham a system almost thirty years old. I know the first response will be from someone who will say that I took off a more modern CIS and put on webers but I am old school and just plain love carbs. For what they cost I could of easily upgraded to a different injection system.My thinking is that I will go with the MSD unit. I am also planning a camshaft swap so I really won't have a great indication of the ignition gain if any