Lorenfb

"BTW, I own a sign company and work with vinyl film all the time, but after watching these guys there's no way I'd do this myself except for totally flat surfaces. Very tricky to work with over compound curves" Dave Thomas

As your background indicates Dave, try and avoid technical topics. Threads on polish/paint and what
rag/brush to use better fits your limited technical knowledge!

Diamond Blue

Reg, The SteveW chip is great, bought mine last year. Ignore Loren, he attacks when someone doesn't agree with HIS chip philosophy.
Better yet do a search here and at Pelican on the subject, hours of fun reading.

Dave Thomas

[QUOTE=Lorenfb As your background indicates Dave, try and avoid technical topics. Threads on polish/paint and what rag/brush to use better fits your limited technical knowledge![/QUOTE]

Time to take your medication, Loren

Lorenfb

Typical of many, when you can't attack the message, attack the messenger!
Makes for a real professional forum, doesn't it?

Thread contribution - ZERO

Dave Thomas

Loren, your ridiculous, head-in-the-sand, incorrect theories about chips have been adequately disproven about a dozen times, both here and at the Pelican site. You have no credibility on the subject, yet you insist on coming back for more. You leave us no other choice but to ignore you. When you have something new to add to the discussion, please try again.

Lorenfb

Dyno tests have shown no real chip benefit to stock 3.2 engines as per Bruce Anderson of Excellence Magazine:

Lorenfb

The results of dyno tests shown on the Pelican web site also corroborate the Bruce
Anderson data for stock engines. Most/all dyno tests are not "clean" before & after
tests and usually have engine mods, e.g. different exhausts, which skews the data
results.

Many have been "playing" with 3.2 chips for the last 15+ years with the
same results, and there have been no "breakthroughs" of recent years
to change the results of adding a performance chip to a stock 3.2.

Dave Thomas

God, you never give up do you?

The first graph you posted is outdated and DOES NOT INCLUDE STEVE WONG'S CHIP.

Your statement about the current dyno graphs on the Pelican site are WRONG - they DO indicate a power increase due to the chip, especially when used with performance exhaust.

Your arguement that these results are skewed because of the exhaust change is meaningless, because almost everyone who does a chip also does the exhaust.

Steve W

Dyno data only shows the change in hp and torque at full throttle and not at part throttle, where it matters greatly to most in everyday usability. That is where great differences lie between the stock chip vs. a good performance chip. An not all performance chips are alike. As I have most of those 15 year old chips in my database, I can tell you with exact detail why they do or do not produce the power shown in Bruce Anderson's chart. Many of those listed have absolutely no change to the part throttle mapping, creating no improvement in part throttle response and torque. One of them while advancing the timing 13 degrees, also added so much fuel so much to negate any realistic gains. Two of the chips on that chart are actually copies of one another, and while also advancing the timing, leaned out the full throttle fuel so much in most of the region, it would also either negate any power gains, or be so lean I would be concerned with predetonation, especially with 91 octane fuel or any engine modifications.

That said, here is a repost of a battery of dyno data from an 88 Carrera performed by its owner at Dynospot Racing in San Jose, CA. Dynoruns 001 to 003 are on a stock car configuration with the stock chip. Dynoruns 004 to 006 are with a performance chip only change. And dyno runs 007 to 008 are with the performance chip but the exhaust change with the replacement of the cat with a euro premuffler. As I mentioned, these only show the change in full throttle absolute hp, and not the change in driveability and enhanced acceleration.

Dave Thomas

Therefore:

Average of stock engine runs = 197.04 RWHP

Average with chip only = 206.42 RWHP, = +9.38 HP

Average with chip and exhaust = 210.80 RWHP, = +13.76 HP = + about 7% at the rear wheels, or about 8% at the flywheel using the commonly accepted 15% drivetrain loss.

And ditto your comments about enhanced part-throttle driveability.

Thanks for your well-reasoned and insightful comments, Steve!

jet911

First, I'm a believer in chip and exhaust mods to add cheap HP. With that said, I thought the '87 - '89s generated 217 HP at the Flywheel. With a 15% loss at rear wheels, how does a stock '88 get those dyno numbers? I figure with a 15% loss, the stock would be running about 184.45 HP at the rear wheels (217 - 32.55 (15%) = 184.45), not the average of 197.04. Did the car have a sport muffler to begin with or what's up here?

Also, to Steve W. - My car is an '86 stock (I did drill out the air box cover). I'm considering one of you chips and a Monti Muffler. What kind of RWHP increase would you suspect I could get with only your chip upgrade and your chip with a Monti Muffler? I live in SLC, UT where the best gas is 91 oct.

TIA

g-50cab

Now that's just not very nice... Disagree - which you have elevated to an art form - but leave the personal attacks to your ant farm

Dave Thomas

I believe that car was a Club Sport (Steve?), but that doesn't really skew anything. The Club Sport engine is identical except for 2 things - lighter valves to handle a 400 RPM higher rev limit. The higher rev limit is due to the chip being programmed that way, otherwise the chip is identical to the best chip that Porsche ever made, the "8" chip. Early Carreras had the "7" chip, which probably produce lless horsepower.

Your car should have an earlier chip (should be a 24-pin), and the upgrade to Steve's chip should be more noticeable than in the later cars, especially if you change the exhaust too. Steve will program your chip to work with the 91 octane and whatever mods you make. I'm lucky - I can still get 93 octane here.

jet911

Thanks Dave! I have heard that the '84 - '86s get even a better RWHP increase...

Lorenfb

"Dyno data only shows the change in hp and torque at full throttle and not at part throttle, where it matters greatly to most in everyday usability." Steve W

Using this statement and evaluating the graphs, all the "deltas" between the graphs
are in the noise level, i.e. the errors (measurement, setup, repeatability, etc.) when
considered would result in no significant difference in the multiple data sets. Given that,
one can't conclude a real difference between stock chips and performance chips.

Having the tabular data would further indicate the randomness of
the "deltas" which would further indicate insignificance between chips.

"Your car should have an earlier chip (should be a 24-pin), and the upgrade to Steve's chip should be more noticeable than in the later cars" Dave Thomas

Not true - Late '87 cars (24 pin DME) with the 082 DME produced
the same HP as the '88/'89 with the 28 pin DMEs. Check the Porsche
specs.