david benett

what is the best thing to do for firming up the suspension a bit on my 88 carera on a limited budget? i do a good amount of auto-x and am not super concerned about falling into a given class. i have thought about upgrading the shocks and going to turbo tie rods. i have also beeng thinking about acoompnaying this w/ replacing the bushings (they 12 years old). what is involved in replacing the bushings? is it a complete nightmare? am i on the right track (shocks/tie rods/bushings) or should i just wait, save my cash and do the whole torsion bar / sway bar / shock upgrade?

db www.bentoracing.com

James Achard

David, My suggestion would be to check out Bruce Anderson's book on 911 Modifications. This will give you some places to start as well as giving you some framework. Suspension upgrades need a long term plan so you don't find yourself getting stuck from a previous upgrade. My suggestion would be to figure out what your end result is and then pick away at stuff as your budget allows. By coming up with a plan first,you can hopefully eleviate many expensive trips to get the car re-aligned after you have put in the upgrades. Speaking from experience here Good Luck!!

James Achard

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Hi David:

James really offered some splendid advice about doing some homework and the need for strategic planning BEFORE you spend a dime.

I'll second that; wholeheartedly.

From our perspective, I'd like to offer some specific ideas and some practical advice, based on some experience with these sorts of things.

1) Here are some things that will make a quantum improvement in handling without extracting a toll in ride quality:

Bilstein HD front shocks
Bilstein Sport rear shocks
22mm front Torsion bars (Sander Engineering)
29mm rear Torsion bars (Sander Engineering)
22mm Front & Rear adjustable swaybars;(TRG's or Smart Products)
Front strut tower brace
Turbo tie rods
A proper installation corner-balance and alignment. Set the car's rake at 1 deg.

2) Given the labor, equipment and skill to install this stuff correctly and have everything work, do this all at once and only pay the labor once.

After that, the Prime Directive will be to get "seat time". The driver is still the single biggest factor,........

david benett

i definitely hear what your saying about not paying to have the car re-aligned over and over. i was planning on taking some time and doing the shocks and tie rods later this winter. some more research will be in order.
db

Stephen Masraum

I would agree with the previous posts whole-heartedly, and value Steve W's advice highly as everything I have seen indicates he knows what he's doing and then some. The only other thing that I offer is if you are feeling like getting dirty lots of the guys on the list have done their own alignment and so you may be able to as well which would change things a bit. I consider it from time to time, but haven't taken the plunge, and when it comes time ($$ permitting) my car will be going to a good shop to be lowered, corner balanced, and then realigned.
Just thought I'd plant a seed , home alignment is possible.

Clark Griswald

Some good advice in this thread, but some may have overlooked your paramater of "on a limited budget".

Having upgraded a couple of 911 suspensions and also being a cheap bastard, I can offer some guidelines. I would suggest deciding your budget, then picking from the following. Except for the alingment, I am assuming you are doing the labor yourself (this is the first step to doing this on the cheap) -

Under $400
Lower car
Corner balance
New bushings front and rear (your 12 yr old needs these anyway)
4 wheel align, make sure this is done right, most shops won't/don't do it right

Under $800
All the above plus Bilstein or Koni shocks

Under $1100
All the above plus Bigger tbars, get them used

Under $2000
All the above plus sway bars, get them used
plus turbo tie rods

I really suggest going to the $1100 level right away. You want to do the tbars/bushings/lower/align at the same time to minimize labor. But you won't get the benefit of the tbars without the shocks. So try to budget for this in one step.

david benett

thanks chuck, good to hear from someone who is on a limited budget and wants some instant gratification. what size torsion bars to you run? the same size as what steve was mentioning?

db

Richard Bernau

If you really want to stick to a budget I will offer some more advice. I have currently own a 1989 3.2 with standard torsion bars, new Bilsteins and a 22mm Weltmeister rear bar. It was lowered (a little) and had rear spring plate bushes replaced (no other bushes replaced). It is a joy to drive and has great balance (adjustable through the rear bar). To complete the picture, it also has 7 and 9 inch Fuchs wheels. I use the car on the road and on track (say 4 DE events a year).

IMHO I would leave the turbo tie rods till last. Having owned cars with and without I do not think they make that much of a difference.

Cheers

david benett

thanks, good food for thought on the rear bar only and the rear spring plate bushings. anyone else running this type of set-up? sounds reasonable cost effective as i think that shocks are about to be inevitable.

db

Bill Gregory

Lots of good advice. I'll just add some thoughts:

* Unless you know you need to change or upgrade your bushings, do other things first.

* I found a tremendous difference with turbo tie rods, and recommend them as an upgrade. It's one of the few investments that you continue to notice every time you turn the steering wheel.

* Be cautious about buying used torsion bars. They can sag after a number of years. I'd recommend new ones for longevities sake in your 911.

* If you have to split buying shocks and torsion bars into two separate buys, I'd suggest torsion bars first. I know many recommend shocks first, but shocks only control the reaction of your suspension and body to inputs via the torsion bars. Torsion bars, on the other hand, are what really do the work to firm up the suspension. Really, you should do them together, as they complement each other, but given the choice to do one, my two cents are on torsion bars.

Clark Griswald

I have used 21/27 on my Carrera and 19/25 on my 77.

I use the Carrera for a mix of street and track and find the 21/27 to be a good choice. These are about 50% stiffer than stock and provide a significant increase in control while not being over the top stiff. This combined with lowering yields a very flat corner.

All tbar 911s need new bushings (unless already replaced). The stock bushings "flow" even when parked and after 12+ years need to replaced. My recommendation to replace bushings is not about upgrading to poly bushings, it is about fixing a problem. Replace with rubber if you like, but do replace.

If you can't to shocks and tbars at the same time, I recommend shocks. If you put stiffer tbars in without shocks, you will overpower your stock shocks. Shocks alone make an amazing increase in control and feel.

Tom Shigeta

If you want to replace the front rubber bushings, Smart Racing is the only place I know that sells the stock rubber ones. They will replace it for you, or if you have access to a small press or pipe clamps, like I did, you can replace them yourself. Took a lot of trial and error, but finally got them on. The front bushings get compressed after some years, and the torsion bar starts rubbing on the edge of the a-arm, sometimes causing a squeak in the front suspension. If left too long, I suppose the torsion bar could get either rust on the scraped area, or possibly break.

Bill Gregory

The bushings are a 914 part, as I recall.

The squeak you're referring to may not be caused by bad bushings. Bruce Anderson has pointed this out. What happens is that, over time, the cast iron end cap which the height adjusting screw goes through wiggles just enough that it wears a rut into the cross beam. This allows the torsion bar to touch the outer tube, causing a squeak. The fix is to remove the end cap and weld a thin (maybe 2 cm) bead across the bottom where the contact is made, which raises the torsion bar back up. A friend with an '86 dismantled his a-arms planning to change the front bushings to fix the squeak, and found them to be OK. Two small welds later, he was back in shape, squeaking problem fixed. I recently did this on my '81 also.

Tom Shigeta

Thanks for the info Bill, I didn't realize it was a 914 part. Seemed like all the info I was getting showed the bushings weren't available, but that you needed to buy the whole a-arm to get new bushings.

Putting the welds on the cap will correct the problem. I temporarily put a small strip of metal under my end cap until I was able to replace the bushings, which were compressed on the top enough that the bottom of the a-arm tube would scrape against the torsion bar. Replacing the bushings centered the tube so it didn't scrape anymore.

Clark Griswald

??????

I don't understand that. The cap should not be supporting the tbar. The cap just prevents the tbar from rotating at the end.

The bushing supports the tbar and centers it in the tube. If the bushing has compressed, as it will after 12+ years, the cap may in fact be rubbing against the cross beam. But this is not how it should be.