R Gruppe is a California-based group of early 911 enthusiasts who are less dedicated to originality and preservation than they are to 'sports purpose' modifications. Basically: hot rod early cars.

Here's my personal version:

 

They meet once a year:



More pictures here.

 

Jack:
I have to admit, a picture of your first car has been the wallpaper on my laptop for almost as long as I can remember. Long enough that I don't know what was on there before.
I read the Excellence piece on your current ride, and I must say, it sounds rather amazing.

All:
I am starting to get more and more excited about building something unique as opposed to buying something (questionably) restored.

I am thinking in broad strokes here, but I want to make sure I am approaching this the right way.

1. Find a car that isn't too rusted or beaten or abused.
2. Chemical strip, replace seals, add flares (find nice big Fuchs), conquer all rust.
3. Paint desired color
4. Do various interior things somewhere along the way
5. Decide on engine
6. Do engine work (tranny as well? definitely brakes, suspension)
7. Attempt to wipe massive grin off of face.

I want to make sure I have everything planned before I start to eliminate wasted time and effort. Speed of completion is not necessarily a goal, simply continuous progress. That being said, I don't plan to stop in between any of the steps.

The first few steps seem to be rather simple, once I find a shop that is trustworthy and knows how to do things right, the first time.

The engine is interesting to me. Does anyone know a site where some of the details of the conversion are covered? The '72 has an external oil cooler, right? Would that still make another external once necessary?

And the questions begin...


Jeff

 

I bought a '70 911T 6 yrs ago from a San Francisco owner, had an independent do a PPI and it was supossedly a reasonably rust free car. You'd be amazed what a little undercoating fiberglass and spray paint can cover up! With the peace of mind of having a clean PPI, I bought the car and drove it trouble free for nearly 60,000 miles before the itch to have a faster car took hold. While performing a number a number of performance upgrades on the car, I found the dreaded rust, a lot of it. Neither the PPI Inspector or I ever saw the rust . The rusted front pan and battery trays, the Driver's side pan and rear package (rear seat area) tray. replaced. If I was to do it again, I'd do what ever it took to not get emotional about the car and get at least 2 independent PPI's done and unless it's a sub-15k mi. concourse beauty/garage queen, and you probably wouldn't be able to afford one of those for a few years yet. I would limit my search area to the Southwest, preferrably away from the Pacific Ocean. As for finding a good PPI, That's the easy part post a PPI refferal request here, you'll get a good # of reputable shops anywhere you find a car your'e interested in.

Good luck, you've got a lot of great advice here, I wish I took it when I was looking. BTW, I'm with you, the early cars Talked to me too. I've also got a 911SC. When getting to and from work, the SC is the hands down favorite, but weekends belong to the early car.

IMHO: As for an engine swap, unless you can find a 911S you can afford, bigger displacement is definately more fun. Personally, I went with a 2.7liter 7R case, built out to 2.9liters. the smaller displacement cases are much more free reving and develop their torque at a higher rev point. They don't have the low end Torque of an SC or Carerra motor and probably are a little more tiring in traffic but I think overall they are a lot more fun to drive on Winding mountain and country roads.

 

Someone said to stay away from Born2bfast.
Pelican website has a big discussion about this company.

 

jtkkz & All:
After reading the myriad array of threads and warnings about Wayne I have decided to keep my distance. Plus he wants 20k for a T. That just seems like a bit too much for me, especially from someone with a reputation as a scam artist. I know I could negotiate down, but it just doesn't seem to be worth the hassle, the search goes on.

I should probably start a new thread for my search / planning ideas. Oh well, once I start to see some things I like maybe.

Thanks again for the help thus far guys, I know this is probably going to be a long trip, but definitely worth it.


Jeff

 

Thanks!

 

Cale.... anybody who asks $20K for a T and does not have a rep as a scam artist should soon get one soon...

Your project sound$ fun... hope you have a big checkbook... not trying to sound negative, but put a detailed budget together.... and then hit it with another 60%... unexpected things and "might as well as..."

Example: the oil system alone cost $2K... 3.2 oil fittings were not compatible with the 70 tank and lines... used replacement tank... new lines (at $100+ per...ouch) a new front cooler... IMHO, don't re-use a cooler.... you don;t know what kind of junk is in there.... fishing new lines through the rockers (very clean... but lots of shop time...)... plus general futzing around with brackets that changed etc, etc....at $80/hr... it adds up fast....

If you are a good mechanic.... that helps alot...(I'm a disaster with a wrench)

Definately go with PMO carbs if possible.... more power and a cleaner install... no need to integrate the FI... plus you might be able to find a good long block 3.0 or 3.2 cheaper without the FI....

Use a 915 gearbox if possible... the 901 is stressed with this kind of power...

If you can find a T with a good straight tub... start with that.... there are cars out there with bad engines...... terminal condition for these cars....you are going to end up replacing almost everything else anyway... you may have to bite the bullet on some rust... but if you are doing an RSR conversion, for example, you will have the car partially apart anyway... do all the body-work first....... (other stuff can be done more pay as you go.... )... if the car turns out to be terminal, you can cut your losses immediately

If you plan to keep the car, you will have an awesome car that you know is done right.... if you plan to sell the car at some point in time, you will probably take a hard hit relative to what you have in it... in that case I would buy a very good condition stock configuration car, and keep it basically stock..... it should experience virtually no depreciation...money in the bank

 

Jack O.... since the subject came up... looking to do an RSR body on my car.... thinking about steel flairs rather than Fiberglass fender replacement.... any thoughts or recommended sources?

 

Steel is more durable, but are there steel RSR pieces available? Depending on how 'correct' you want it to look, you could start with Turbo flares, and modify them to work with the earlier bumpers. The lips on the Turbo flares were more 'squared-off,' but they can be modified for the right look, or you can just enjoy them as they are. The Blue RSR-ish 3.8 on the current issue of Excellence is based on an early Turbo body.

If you find someone making RSR pieces, let me know.

 

My dilemma, if one could call it that, has reared its ugly head again. To buy an already restored / freshened car or to build my own?

The instigator of today's questioning is the appearance of what appears to be a very nicely done 73 911 E down in Florida.

Link for those who are still reading this far:
http://adcache.collectorcartraderonl...8/69050258.htm

It is quite overpriced (asking $24.5 k, with Excellence valuing a 73 E in excellent shape at $13.7 k), but very attractive nonetheless.

How does one properly assess someone else's restoration? Beyond receipts and a thorough PPI what are the tricks when looking at a restored car as to one you are expecting to have problems?

What negotiation strategies work with someone who probably just dumped a ton of money into the car and doesn't like Bruce's valuation?

Thanks for the continuing help here guys. Hopefully soon I will actually put my money where my mouth (and eyes) are and start asking substantive questions about why my knuckles are still bleeding.


Jeff

 

That car could sell for 20K in this market, depending on its condition. I'd want a very thorough PPI at that price, though.

 

I just got some more pictures from the ad mentioned in my previous post...it is still looking really good. I think it might be time to see if anyone knows a good shop in the West Palm Beach area to take a look at this for me.


Jeff

 

Cale....IMHO it is always better to buy than build.... of course I'm a notorious cheapskate.... you will get work at 30-50 cents on the dollar.

That said it is easy to do a "restoration" that looks like a million bucks, but cut lots of corners in body and mech work.... PPI obviously.... some other things....

Find out who did the work... did a single shop do it? If so, check their reputation... if it is excellent and even perhaps a bit pricey, that is a good sign that the owner may not have cut corners.... they may even be willing to discuss the car with you.... generally if they are proud of their work, neither the shop nor the owner will mind... but it depends on each shop.

Also, if you can get in touch with some of the guys in the local PCA, most people are familiar with alot of the cars and owners.... they might say some stuff like.... "yeah, that car is done right"... "or Joe Blow is a perfectionist...." or ".... Joe Blow is a bit of a squirrel..."

Also, $20K is probably not a bad price for a really top restored car.... an E is a really desirable car IMHO.... all a matter of what you want

 

Hey All,
This has been a great thread for me .. I was originally looking at 944's,
but my buddies are pointing me toward early 911's. I located a 71' targa
about a mile from my house thats being redone , buy a Porsche mechanic.
I am not sure I like the targa top , but it is a very clean car.

A question for you guys is with the standard fenders is a 205 the widest
tire that will fit ? I know with the flares you can go huge

Jack Olson ..... Good luck at the OTC . Looks like you are the only one in
your class this year .

Mike