3.2 to 3.6, and not a swap?
09-09-2002, 11:54 AM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
3.2 to 3.6, and not a swap?
After my earlier post regarding 300hp out of a 3.2 the consensous was to swap in a newer 3.6. After a LOT of research I have found a manufacturer of 3.6 liter piston and cylinders for the 3.2 (aircooled racing I believe, I have forgotten at the moment). Theorhetically if I also go with twin plug heads and the higher compression pistons I should get around 275 out of this combination without swapping the motors, maybe more with the right cams. The reason I looked is that it might be cheaper to go this route than spend 11k on a motor swap.
My questions are does anyone have an experience (STEVE?) with this modification and where can I get twin plug heads? Also, how high of compression can I go without needing to run race gas (they have a set of 11.3:1 heads).
Thanks in advance . . .
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
My questions are does anyone have an experience (STEVE?) with this modification and where can I get twin plug heads? Also, how high of compression can I go without needing to run race gas (they have a set of 11.3:1 heads).
Thanks in advance . . .
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
09-09-2002, 02:40 PM
#2
RL Technical Advisor
Hi Roamer:
IMHO, the best and least expensive route to attaining 275 to 300 HP would be to install a varioram 3.6 with a good exhaust system and a custom chip. Nothing else will get close and from experiences you will spend more on your 3.2 trying,.................to get there. BTDT sooooo many times.
There is a world of difference betwen the 3.2 & 3.6 litre engines besides displacement.
FWIW, anything over 9.8 to one requires twin-ignition or race gas.
This might not be what you wanted to hear, but its the truth,.....
IMHO, the best and least expensive route to attaining 275 to 300 HP would be to install a varioram 3.6 with a good exhaust system and a custom chip. Nothing else will get close and from experiences you will spend more on your 3.2 trying,.................to get there. BTDT sooooo many times.
There is a world of difference betwen the 3.2 & 3.6 litre engines besides displacement.
FWIW, anything over 9.8 to one requires twin-ignition or race gas.
This might not be what you wanted to hear, but its the truth,.....
09-09-2002, 04:01 PM
#3
Instructor
Thread Starter
Steve, thanks, I was hoping you would respond. It just seems that the cost, even if I get $3500 for my motor is extravagant. From what Dr. Timmins has on his page, we are talking 9-10k for a Varioram and another 3k in mods and install I am still out $9500. Pricing out the other methods, 3500 for pistons and cylinders, 2000 for heads, $1k for other hardware puts me at $6500 and I have a "rebuilt" motor instead of a used one. I might not have the full 300hp out of a varioram but from what I hear the 3.2 and 964 motors are more durable anyway so they may better suit my purposes. The $3000 difference for 20-30hp is pretty high.
The other problem is that at around 10k extra I could buy a 911 turbo.
Thanks for the continued input.
The other problem is that at around 10k extra I could buy a 911 turbo.
Thanks for the continued input.
09-09-2002, 04:34 PM
#4
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
This is not a cheap upgrade. But, once you have the 3.6 you can then add cams, 3.8 kit and so on to add more HP. If you punch out the 3.2 it's about maxed out already.
09-09-2002, 07:14 PM
#5
Race Car
[quote]...3500 for pistons and cylinders, 2000 for heads...<hr></blockquote>Right there, you've spent more than I did on my 3.6.
I paid $5,000 for a 17,000-mile 1993 3.6, $3,000 for parts and labor to install -- less what I sold my old motor for.
I've got to agree with Steve. Dollar for dollar, there's no better path to more power. Hop up your 3.2, and you'll be very happy -- until you ride in a 3.6-swapped car and realize... you forgot to add the torque.
(Admittedly, I got a good deal on my motor. But they can be had pretty easily for $6500 or so.)
Steve is a very generous and very candid shop owner. If he and I were to ever give you different advice... definitely listen to him. Fortunately, the opinion I'm about to give below doesn't apply to him at all.
There is a huge aftermarket rebuild industry that sells the curious idea that there are better ways to engineer power out of a flat six than the path that Porsche AG was able to discover spending many millions on R&D. Conveniently, the 'lets-rebuild-it' industry benefits from the fact that there's often one (estimated) cost going in, and a much different (actual) cost before all the surprise fires are put out, and the 'while we're in there' decisions are agonized over and finally made.
Not-so-surprisingly, there's a whole lot of labor involved in doing a rebuild, which puts more dollars in the pockets of the let's-rebuild-it guys than a swap ever would. Coincidence?
I think there is a place for engine rebuilding, without a doubt. Especially for do-it-yourselfers. And as the years pass and the existing pool of air-cooled 3.6's ages and dries up, it's going to become a smarter and smarter option. But it's hard to come up with a justification for it in this particular case, since there are so many readily-available 3.6's out there, which are going to provide rock-solid (case-never-cracked) reliability and <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/jackolsen/0to60B.mov" target="_blank">this kind of juice</a> for a lot less money.
My .02.
I paid $5,000 for a 17,000-mile 1993 3.6, $3,000 for parts and labor to install -- less what I sold my old motor for.
I've got to agree with Steve. Dollar for dollar, there's no better path to more power. Hop up your 3.2, and you'll be very happy -- until you ride in a 3.6-swapped car and realize... you forgot to add the torque.
(Admittedly, I got a good deal on my motor. But they can be had pretty easily for $6500 or so.)
Steve is a very generous and very candid shop owner. If he and I were to ever give you different advice... definitely listen to him. Fortunately, the opinion I'm about to give below doesn't apply to him at all.
There is a huge aftermarket rebuild industry that sells the curious idea that there are better ways to engineer power out of a flat six than the path that Porsche AG was able to discover spending many millions on R&D. Conveniently, the 'lets-rebuild-it' industry benefits from the fact that there's often one (estimated) cost going in, and a much different (actual) cost before all the surprise fires are put out, and the 'while we're in there' decisions are agonized over and finally made.
Not-so-surprisingly, there's a whole lot of labor involved in doing a rebuild, which puts more dollars in the pockets of the let's-rebuild-it guys than a swap ever would. Coincidence?
I think there is a place for engine rebuilding, without a doubt. Especially for do-it-yourselfers. And as the years pass and the existing pool of air-cooled 3.6's ages and dries up, it's going to become a smarter and smarter option. But it's hard to come up with a justification for it in this particular case, since there are so many readily-available 3.6's out there, which are going to provide rock-solid (case-never-cracked) reliability and <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/jackolsen/0to60B.mov" target="_blank">this kind of juice</a> for a lot less money.
My .02.
09-09-2002, 08:20 PM
#6
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Have to agree with Steve and Jack. Had a worked 3.2 that was very nice. Decided to go with the 3.6 after bending all my valves. Absolutely no regrets.
The 3.6 rocks! The engine pulls all the way past 7,000 (and has more past that point), the torque is phenomenal and well, you get the idea. 260 at the rear wheels = approx 300 hp at the flywheel.
And I'm convinced that with headers and super traps I'd be good for 325 hp. But, not yet . . . still driving on the street for now.
richard
'87 Carrera-3.6L
The 3.6 rocks! The engine pulls all the way past 7,000 (and has more past that point), the torque is phenomenal and well, you get the idea. 260 at the rear wheels = approx 300 hp at the flywheel.
And I'm convinced that with headers and super traps I'd be good for 325 hp. But, not yet . . . still driving on the street for now.
richard
'87 Carrera-3.6L
09-09-2002, 11:23 PM
#7
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Hi Roamer:
I felt the need to reply. I am in the middle of the approach (3.2l to 3.6l mod) you are considering. First of all, I agree with Steve. I know that sounds odd as I'm not going with a 3.6l engine swap. I'm even working with Steve on resolution of many issues.
My objective was also to LEARN about the inner workings of the flat 6 motor via teardown and assembly. I probably won't have as much HP or Torque potential, but I realized that when I made the decision to go this way.
Twin ignition addition will set you back some...of course depends on the approach. If you stay with Motronic, you're looking at signal splitter ($), dual distributor ($), 2nd coil ($), plug wires ($), machined lower valve covers ($) and probably getting a custom chip burned ($).
I also went with the 993 crank along with Mahle P&C's (ordered thru Rennsport). They are made for the 3.2l upgrade, spec'd as 10.5/1, and for motronic system. I have also opted for some other mods along the way that wouldn't have to be done, but I chose to. I am WAY beyond the price for a 3.6l exchange. But I'll know that engine in and out which is very valuable to me!
If you're like me, once you get into a rebuild, you'll find yourself doing a lot of little things while it's disassembled that add up quickly ($).
With a swap, hopefully, this wouldn't be the case.
Best of luck on what you decide.
Also, FWIW, if you're in any hurry, the swap has the potential to be a MUCH quicker endeavor!
dwightp
I felt the need to reply. I am in the middle of the approach (3.2l to 3.6l mod) you are considering. First of all, I agree with Steve. I know that sounds odd as I'm not going with a 3.6l engine swap. I'm even working with Steve on resolution of many issues.
My objective was also to LEARN about the inner workings of the flat 6 motor via teardown and assembly. I probably won't have as much HP or Torque potential, but I realized that when I made the decision to go this way.
Twin ignition addition will set you back some...of course depends on the approach. If you stay with Motronic, you're looking at signal splitter ($), dual distributor ($), 2nd coil ($), plug wires ($), machined lower valve covers ($) and probably getting a custom chip burned ($).
I also went with the 993 crank along with Mahle P&C's (ordered thru Rennsport). They are made for the 3.2l upgrade, spec'd as 10.5/1, and for motronic system. I have also opted for some other mods along the way that wouldn't have to be done, but I chose to. I am WAY beyond the price for a 3.6l exchange. But I'll know that engine in and out which is very valuable to me!
If you're like me, once you get into a rebuild, you'll find yourself doing a lot of little things while it's disassembled that add up quickly ($).
With a swap, hopefully, this wouldn't be the case.
Best of luck on what you decide.
Also, FWIW, if you're in any hurry, the swap has the potential to be a MUCH quicker endeavor!
dwightp
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09-10-2002, 10:55 AM
#8
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks guys!
I hate to bring this discussion up again, but I have been trying to put together my mod plan and the motor option affects everything else I am considering.
To all, I heard that the 94 3.6 is THE motor to go with because of its lower cost and supposedly better durability. However, is 300hp really possible out of this motor. By my calculation that is a 40hp upgrade which I think is out of the question for bolt-on mods. Are my assumptions (less durable because of the valve and block construction) about the later motors correct, because, clearly a motor starting out with over 270hp is far easier to ramp up 25 hp than 40.
Rich and Jack: My fears are exactly as you discussed, getting the motor apart and spending big $ on all the upgrades as I put it back together or need as a result of the changes. I guess I should spend time shopping around for the motor first to see what kind of deals are available. Any suggestions on who to contact?
Steve: Thanks again for your candid and valuable advice, I know I speak for all on this board that it is truly appreciated. On the tranny side, is there any way to beef up the 915 to take over 300hp should my future mods get me there?
Thanks again!
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
I hate to bring this discussion up again, but I have been trying to put together my mod plan and the motor option affects everything else I am considering.
To all, I heard that the 94 3.6 is THE motor to go with because of its lower cost and supposedly better durability. However, is 300hp really possible out of this motor. By my calculation that is a 40hp upgrade which I think is out of the question for bolt-on mods. Are my assumptions (less durable because of the valve and block construction) about the later motors correct, because, clearly a motor starting out with over 270hp is far easier to ramp up 25 hp than 40.
Rich and Jack: My fears are exactly as you discussed, getting the motor apart and spending big $ on all the upgrades as I put it back together or need as a result of the changes. I guess I should spend time shopping around for the motor first to see what kind of deals are available. Any suggestions on who to contact?
Steve: Thanks again for your candid and valuable advice, I know I speak for all on this board that it is truly appreciated. On the tranny side, is there any way to beef up the 915 to take over 300hp should my future mods get me there?
Thanks again!
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
