Porsche- The Downward Spiral...
01-27-2004, 07:45 PM
#61
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I didn't mean owning 25 year old cars.
I sold my "new" Porsche and bought an 85' Carrera. I know others who have done the same with SC's, Carreras, 951's, 930's, 964's and 993s, etc.
Their "old" cars may be their biggest competition, along with Lotus and of course Ferrari.
I sold my "new" Porsche and bought an 85' Carrera. I know others who have done the same with SC's, Carreras, 951's, 930's, 964's and 993s, etc.
Their "old" cars may be their biggest competition, along with Lotus and of course Ferrari.
01-27-2004, 08:13 PM
#62
Three Wheelin'
Hetmann,
There are a lot of us on the 993 (and 993 Turbo) board who would buy a new Porsche if we liked the new ones better than the ones we own -- but we don't. Porsche should care about this.
There are a lot of us on the 993 (and 993 Turbo) board who would buy a new Porsche if we liked the new ones better than the ones we own -- but we don't. Porsche should care about this.
01-27-2004, 09:11 PM
#63
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If Porsche put a "cheap" 30K car on the market....it would be the death of them. I would keep my old 911's but I would definitely never buy a "newer" Porsche again. Compairing 912, 924, 944 prices to whats available now, Porsche does have a low end car...its called the Boxster. It would be a crying shame to lower its standards just so every swinging dick could own a new "Porsche".
01-27-2004, 10:53 PM
#64
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i personally thought that when the original 5 dash gauges were taken away for the newer guage unit that more than likely costs less to produce but has excatly zero heritage or 911 allure that the company was heading downward
a t-shirt that I saw at a track day pretty much somes up the feeling of most porsche enthusiasts...."To Hell with Lemans, we're building and SUV!"
a t-shirt that I saw at a track day pretty much somes up the feeling of most porsche enthusiasts...."To Hell with Lemans, we're building and SUV!"
01-28-2004, 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by Ed Bighi
I am sure that if Porsche made a septic tank, it would be the best septic tank in the world. But should Porshe be building septic tanks?
I am sure that if Porsche made a septic tank, it would be the best septic tank in the world. But should Porshe be building septic tanks?
I am speechless and my side hurts.
01-28-2004, 03:53 PM
#66
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Man are you guys a bunch of snobs. Purists my ***.
Porsche is in business to make a profit, just like very other company in the world. They need to grow to remain competitive in the market place and conduct the R&D needed to maintain the brand. You forget, they are still an independent and want to remain that way.
Not everyone in the world is the same in auto appreciation. If we were, there would be only one car. Porsche cannot grow without expanding its product line and thereby expanding its market place.
Personally, I like the 996 (except for the styling) and the SUV and I would love to see a sedan. I can't wait for the 997. After owning 11 Porsches since 1966, all air/oil cooled, I am very loyal and do not see myself being without a P-car. When I was younger, it was the only car I had.
But when people start to bitch that Porsche is abandoning its followers and traditions, it pisses me off. Wake up, and realize that the company must grow, either with you or without you. Without growth, we would have Porsche going the same way as Jaguar and Volvo.
If you're not happy, go buy your Chevy, Ford or some other brand. It would make my day. I run ito people like you at PCA events, looking down your noses at other brands, and some P-car models, and shaking your heads about the direction the company is going. Please, if you don't like Porsche, sell you P-car and get the f### out my club and stop bitching.
Porsche is in business to make a profit, just like very other company in the world. They need to grow to remain competitive in the market place and conduct the R&D needed to maintain the brand. You forget, they are still an independent and want to remain that way.
Not everyone in the world is the same in auto appreciation. If we were, there would be only one car. Porsche cannot grow without expanding its product line and thereby expanding its market place.
Personally, I like the 996 (except for the styling) and the SUV and I would love to see a sedan. I can't wait for the 997. After owning 11 Porsches since 1966, all air/oil cooled, I am very loyal and do not see myself being without a P-car. When I was younger, it was the only car I had.
But when people start to bitch that Porsche is abandoning its followers and traditions, it pisses me off. Wake up, and realize that the company must grow, either with you or without you. Without growth, we would have Porsche going the same way as Jaguar and Volvo.
If you're not happy, go buy your Chevy, Ford or some other brand. It would make my day. I run ito people like you at PCA events, looking down your noses at other brands, and some P-car models, and shaking your heads about the direction the company is going. Please, if you don't like Porsche, sell you P-car and get the f### out my club and stop bitching.
01-28-2004, 05:31 PM
#69
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Originally posted by Petevb
Who are you trying to kid?
According to Road and Track, new 996 vs Evo:
0-60 4.8 4.9
¼ mile time 13.4 13.4
¼ mile speed 103 105.1
60-0 braking 108 117
80-0 braking 194 204
Skidpad .88 .91
Slalom, mph 68.9 67.6
Who are you trying to kid?
According to Road and Track, new 996 vs Evo:
0-60 4.8 4.9
¼ mile time 13.4 13.4
¼ mile speed 103 105.1
60-0 braking 108 117
80-0 braking 194 204
Skidpad .88 .91
Slalom, mph 68.9 67.6
There's a 996 AWD that's doing it to them also, so I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the numbers the Magazine get from the manufacturer's PR staff.
(heck, my box-stock '03 Mazdaspeed weighs 240 pounds less than the magazines say.)
01-28-2004, 08:30 PM
#70
Three Wheelin'
Sinful,
What got up your rear end??? Just to be clear, snobbery has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. No one called anyone names here until you came along; we were all expressing our views, and I'm quite sure it's still a free country. Many of these views are quite well thought out.
To address the rest of your post:
Porsche HAS been growing, and quite rapidly. This was the case long before the SUV came along. Yes, companies need to grow to survive, but companies that grow too fast and/or in the wrong direction go under just as deeply as those that fail to grow. Remember that, once Porsche finally started paying attention to costs, they became the world's most profitable car company -- they could easily weather this temporary downturn without the SUV. And downturns don't get much worse than the one we've been in for several years. Yes, they want to remain independent. I thought I wanted that too, though I'm less sure now. To me, the problem with being bought by another company is brand dilution, platform sharing, etc. What do we have? An independent Porsche that 1) is sharing platforms, 2) no longer builds just sports cars and 3) is not racing at the top level. Porsche not only used to pride themselves on these things, but also credited them with making them who they are. Who are you to say we can't lament these changes?
You wrote, "Not everyone in the world is the same in auto appreciation. If we were, there would be only one car." Exactly! This is what made Porsche special. In fact, there was an ad, for the 996TT I think, that said something like, "It's not something for everyone, but it's everything for someone." Porsche built cars that weren't for everyone. Their apparent plan to build something for everyone (or at least come much closer to this) threatens to undermine what made them great. The type of growth they're undertaking is far more likely to make them like so many other car companies who make a wide variety of cars for a very broad spectrum of customers -- BMW, M-B, etc. They're all nice cars, but their sports cars aren't as good as Porsche's. Porsche always said that this was because Porsche focused only on sports cars -- not anymore. Jaguar and Volvo, as well as Aston Martin, all under Ford, are building better and more interesting cars than they have in many years, IMO. Look at Ferrari under Fiat -- they race, they build very desirable cars. Do you think Ferrari would retain its luster if it built a truck, regardless of how good a truck it was? Unless it were something really exotic, like the Lambo LM002, I sure don't, and the same is true of Porsche. And let's not forget all those multi-line car companies that have gone under, or very close to it.
I don't look down at other brands -- I like cars, not just Porsches. However, I do think it's a real shame when premium brands let their quality slide. This has been seen in Porsche post-993, M-B very clearly, and BMW recently. Finding this sad doesn't make me a snob.
I am fully entitled to be disappointed in the direction the company is going. I'm not demanding that Porsche listen to me. I am allowed to wish they built a car I'd rather have than my 993, because I'd like to buy a new one. I think they don't care if they lose their current or recent buyers as long as they have more to replace those lost. That's business, but not necessarily good business, especially long term. Wnen the guy in a recent conversation, when the topic of Porsche came up, said, "Oh, they make that new truck," it was abundantly clear that the brand image was already changing. For the worse, IMO.
BTW, it's OUR club, and I'm not leaving.
What got up your rear end??? Just to be clear, snobbery has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. No one called anyone names here until you came along; we were all expressing our views, and I'm quite sure it's still a free country. Many of these views are quite well thought out.
To address the rest of your post:
Porsche HAS been growing, and quite rapidly. This was the case long before the SUV came along. Yes, companies need to grow to survive, but companies that grow too fast and/or in the wrong direction go under just as deeply as those that fail to grow. Remember that, once Porsche finally started paying attention to costs, they became the world's most profitable car company -- they could easily weather this temporary downturn without the SUV. And downturns don't get much worse than the one we've been in for several years. Yes, they want to remain independent. I thought I wanted that too, though I'm less sure now. To me, the problem with being bought by another company is brand dilution, platform sharing, etc. What do we have? An independent Porsche that 1) is sharing platforms, 2) no longer builds just sports cars and 3) is not racing at the top level. Porsche not only used to pride themselves on these things, but also credited them with making them who they are. Who are you to say we can't lament these changes?
You wrote, "Not everyone in the world is the same in auto appreciation. If we were, there would be only one car." Exactly! This is what made Porsche special. In fact, there was an ad, for the 996TT I think, that said something like, "It's not something for everyone, but it's everything for someone." Porsche built cars that weren't for everyone. Their apparent plan to build something for everyone (or at least come much closer to this) threatens to undermine what made them great. The type of growth they're undertaking is far more likely to make them like so many other car companies who make a wide variety of cars for a very broad spectrum of customers -- BMW, M-B, etc. They're all nice cars, but their sports cars aren't as good as Porsche's. Porsche always said that this was because Porsche focused only on sports cars -- not anymore. Jaguar and Volvo, as well as Aston Martin, all under Ford, are building better and more interesting cars than they have in many years, IMO. Look at Ferrari under Fiat -- they race, they build very desirable cars. Do you think Ferrari would retain its luster if it built a truck, regardless of how good a truck it was? Unless it were something really exotic, like the Lambo LM002, I sure don't, and the same is true of Porsche. And let's not forget all those multi-line car companies that have gone under, or very close to it.
I don't look down at other brands -- I like cars, not just Porsches. However, I do think it's a real shame when premium brands let their quality slide. This has been seen in Porsche post-993, M-B very clearly, and BMW recently. Finding this sad doesn't make me a snob.
I am fully entitled to be disappointed in the direction the company is going. I'm not demanding that Porsche listen to me. I am allowed to wish they built a car I'd rather have than my 993, because I'd like to buy a new one. I think they don't care if they lose their current or recent buyers as long as they have more to replace those lost. That's business, but not necessarily good business, especially long term. Wnen the guy in a recent conversation, when the topic of Porsche came up, said, "Oh, they make that new truck," it was abundantly clear that the brand image was already changing. For the worse, IMO.
BTW, it's OUR club, and I'm not leaving.
01-28-2004, 09:24 PM
#71
Three Wheelin'
Well said! I think that sinfulsteve is in the minority on this issue judging by the comments left here. I received a submission for our PCA regional newsletter that supports how most of us feel. Here it is:
AUTOCAR magazine (9 December 2003) recently featured a cover photo and accompanying computer-generated photograph of the upcoming four-door Porsche. Apparently designed as a spiritual successor to the 928, this sedan is reported to be equipped with a stroked version of the Cayenne’s water-cooled V8, both in 420 hp normally-aspirated form and 500+ hp twin-turbo form. This top-of-the-line turbo version will also be equipped with AWD like the Carrera 4 models and is to be priced somewhere north of what the 996 Turbo Cabriolet gets. This is all very interesting but one question seems to keep popping into my head: why? OK, so it’s a “why?” in small case unlike the “WHY?!?” that I uttered when the details of the Cayenne began to surface but it’s a “why?” none-the-less. Call me a purist, call me small-minded, call me anything you wish but the Porsche that I grew to know and love was a small sports-cars manufacturer, not a monolithic jack-of-all-trades that the current Porsche AG seems to want to become. It’s said that Porsche must do this to remain independent even if, and I quote, “If the car we have in mind comes to market, we will have fewer friends.” That’s right from the mouth of Wendelin Wiedeking, Porsche’s controversial CEO. In today’s fickle market, can Porsche survive with fewer friends? If they alienate their loyal followers, who’s going to pick up the slack when the scheiße hits the proverbial fan? Not the flavour-of-the-week, trend following lemmings that are currently buying the style-impaired Cayenne like it’s going out of style. Going out of style? When was big and ugly ever in style? OK, maybe in the seventies but those days are thankfully long gone. What’s my point, you’re probably asking, well, this is it: If Porsche has to sacrifice its great history and vast number of supporters in order to stay independent, then what’s the point? In my humble opinion, what Porsche needs desperately now is to be swallowed up by the Volkswagen/Audi group. Why? Because then it can concentrate on doing what it knows best (building world-class sports and race cars, for those of us who may have already forgotten) and let VW build the high-volume, uber-profit mobiles to rake in the cash. Has Fiat spoiled Ferrari? No. Has Audi spoiled Lamborghini? No. So why should VW spoil Porsche? Everyone in the industry knows the cache that the Porsche name brings (except Porsche itself it seems) and I bet they’d do anything to return it to its former glory. What does the independant Porsche give us? An ugly truck with a wimpy VW-sourced V6 and a 0-60mph time that any 914 can easily beat…where’s that barf-bag…
I couldn't have said it better myself!
AUTOCAR magazine (9 December 2003) recently featured a cover photo and accompanying computer-generated photograph of the upcoming four-door Porsche. Apparently designed as a spiritual successor to the 928, this sedan is reported to be equipped with a stroked version of the Cayenne’s water-cooled V8, both in 420 hp normally-aspirated form and 500+ hp twin-turbo form. This top-of-the-line turbo version will also be equipped with AWD like the Carrera 4 models and is to be priced somewhere north of what the 996 Turbo Cabriolet gets. This is all very interesting but one question seems to keep popping into my head: why? OK, so it’s a “why?” in small case unlike the “WHY?!?” that I uttered when the details of the Cayenne began to surface but it’s a “why?” none-the-less. Call me a purist, call me small-minded, call me anything you wish but the Porsche that I grew to know and love was a small sports-cars manufacturer, not a monolithic jack-of-all-trades that the current Porsche AG seems to want to become. It’s said that Porsche must do this to remain independent even if, and I quote, “If the car we have in mind comes to market, we will have fewer friends.” That’s right from the mouth of Wendelin Wiedeking, Porsche’s controversial CEO. In today’s fickle market, can Porsche survive with fewer friends? If they alienate their loyal followers, who’s going to pick up the slack when the scheiße hits the proverbial fan? Not the flavour-of-the-week, trend following lemmings that are currently buying the style-impaired Cayenne like it’s going out of style. Going out of style? When was big and ugly ever in style? OK, maybe in the seventies but those days are thankfully long gone. What’s my point, you’re probably asking, well, this is it: If Porsche has to sacrifice its great history and vast number of supporters in order to stay independent, then what’s the point? In my humble opinion, what Porsche needs desperately now is to be swallowed up by the Volkswagen/Audi group. Why? Because then it can concentrate on doing what it knows best (building world-class sports and race cars, for those of us who may have already forgotten) and let VW build the high-volume, uber-profit mobiles to rake in the cash. Has Fiat spoiled Ferrari? No. Has Audi spoiled Lamborghini? No. So why should VW spoil Porsche? Everyone in the industry knows the cache that the Porsche name brings (except Porsche itself it seems) and I bet they’d do anything to return it to its former glory. What does the independant Porsche give us? An ugly truck with a wimpy VW-sourced V6 and a 0-60mph time that any 914 can easily beat…where’s that barf-bag…
I couldn't have said it better myself!
01-29-2004, 01:46 AM
#73
Three Wheelin'
I'd rather they introduced a new tank than the Cayenne... actually, isn't that what Lamborghini did with the LM002? Now THAT was an exotic SUV!
This on the otherhand...
This on the otherhand...
01-29-2004, 01:37 PM
#75
I have always liked the LM. And no Lamborghini freak ever questioned the validity of the LM. The reason being that it wasn't pretty, it wasnt' for everybody, and it definetely was not designed for soccer moms to get their kids to school. After all, the only option on the LM, other than the color, was the installation of a machine gun mount in the rear. It was a Lamborghini through and through. A real bull. Notice that it does not have some Countach or Diablo pretend nose like the Cayenne's stupid 996ish nose. It sounded like a Lamborghini because it had a Lamborghini V12 under the hood. What I liked about the LM is the fact that it wasn't something that Lamborghini built to put their product out in the mainstream. Far from it. It was something they built for kings, princes, sheiks, sultans and emirs. It never took away one ounce the Lamborghini image. In fact, being the very bullish vehicle that it is, it added to it.