Porsche- The Downward Spiral...
01-06-2004, 11:24 PM
#31
Actually, off-lease cars not reaching the calculated residual value is not necessarily good. Don't forget, PAG is describing these cars as "sold" when the still belong to a leasing company. If the residual values continue to drop and the leasing company loses money, lease rates will increase. This may affect sales. Nissan had this problem, but to a much greater amount, in the 80s.
01-07-2004, 04:12 PM
#32
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I was thinking about it earlier today, and something else crossed my mind which is something we should consider when we talk about how other cars, even the Evo's and STi's, are encroaging on Porsche performance. And that is the notion of "diminishing returns".
The higher the bar gets set, the harder it is to make significant improvements. Back in '87 when the 959 came out, it had an unheard of 0-60 time of about 3.7 seconds. In '95, the 993 TT would run it in about the same amount of time. Even today, there are very few street-legal cars that can run it in under four seconds, and I'm yet to see one do it in under 3.5. (I'm not saying they aren't out there, but if they are, it's few and far betwen.) As things stand, that 3.5-second mark may never be breached on a regular basis without some serious leaps in tire technology.
So, what's my point? When you are already on the cutting edge of technology, it's more difficult to keep going. This is something that not just Porsche has to contend with, but let's face it, even Ferrari and Lambo's performance isn't as high above the rest of the crowd as they once were. I can't help but think that it's not so much because the companies are getting lazy, but because they are stuggling like mad to eek out that last bit of performance while the other companies are taking technology that's been available for years and using it to make their cars almost as fast as the exotics.
Just a thought...
BB.
The higher the bar gets set, the harder it is to make significant improvements. Back in '87 when the 959 came out, it had an unheard of 0-60 time of about 3.7 seconds. In '95, the 993 TT would run it in about the same amount of time. Even today, there are very few street-legal cars that can run it in under four seconds, and I'm yet to see one do it in under 3.5. (I'm not saying they aren't out there, but if they are, it's few and far betwen.) As things stand, that 3.5-second mark may never be breached on a regular basis without some serious leaps in tire technology.
So, what's my point? When you are already on the cutting edge of technology, it's more difficult to keep going. This is something that not just Porsche has to contend with, but let's face it, even Ferrari and Lambo's performance isn't as high above the rest of the crowd as they once were. I can't help but think that it's not so much because the companies are getting lazy, but because they are stuggling like mad to eek out that last bit of performance while the other companies are taking technology that's been available for years and using it to make their cars almost as fast as the exotics.
Just a thought...
BB.
01-07-2004, 07:32 PM
#33
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BB, Excellent point. The phenomenon you describe is hitting technology-rich consumer products & systems across the board. Automobiles, trains, aircraft, computers & telecom. At the extremes, raw performance increases are increasingly more difficult to achieve. In the fat part of the bell-curve, things are getting crowded because it is easier to reach once the maturity of core technology becomes shared. Thus, to differentiate one product from another, it is becoming a case of "the increasing importance of the smaller difference".
In the case of Porsche, those distinctions are such aspects as feel & balance, ergonomics, et.al. Porsches (even in this "it ain't as good as it used to be" era) offer a qualitative experience that is greater than the sum of its quantitative parts. While mainstream auto companies are getting closer (or exceeding) Porsche on specific metrics, the total still falls short - usually far short. Rather than be disappointed about the GT3's HP figures, or a Boxster's lateral Gs, I am impressed that these cars get around the Norsring better than nearly everything else for sale on the planet. And I can buy one. And drive to the corner store, to CA, or at Barber. For decades.
Maybe I'm just getting old (as is the auto industry), but I am more enthused about overall qualitative performance than I am in bench racing spec sheets or beating Subarus to 60mph.
In the case of Porsche, those distinctions are such aspects as feel & balance, ergonomics, et.al. Porsches (even in this "it ain't as good as it used to be" era) offer a qualitative experience that is greater than the sum of its quantitative parts. While mainstream auto companies are getting closer (or exceeding) Porsche on specific metrics, the total still falls short - usually far short. Rather than be disappointed about the GT3's HP figures, or a Boxster's lateral Gs, I am impressed that these cars get around the Norsring better than nearly everything else for sale on the planet. And I can buy one. And drive to the corner store, to CA, or at Barber. For decades.
Maybe I'm just getting old (as is the auto industry), but I am more enthused about overall qualitative performance than I am in bench racing spec sheets or beating Subarus to 60mph.
Last edited by ked; 01-07-2004 at 11:02 PM.
01-09-2004, 01:49 AM
#34
Three Wheelin'
Warning: very long post.
I would buy a new Porsche if they made something I'd rather have than my current 993. They don't. Further, since I'm only 36, I have a lot of potential new-Porsche-buying years ahead. So, I think Porsche SHOULD be interested in my opinion (whether they are is another story...). The following are some of my posts on similar topics from the 993 board (some of this may seem disjointed and repetitive since they're responses to comments on other threads, but the meaning comes through):
As Porsche has focused increasingly on appealing to a wider market, both within sports cars and especially beyond with the Cayenne, the build quality is dropping. Porsche's priorities are changing, and the company that built the cars I love looks like it's morphing into something that is no longer "special," more like BMW, Audi and Mercedes-Benz. They all make good cars, but none that inspires lust the way Porsche does (or did). Moving further away from sports cars and into SUVs and sedans will render Porsche just another German car company. Top-quality sports cars made Porsche. Neither top-quality nor sports cars seems to be the priority now.
Eric,
You posted: "Maybe the quote from the Porsche executive in last month's Panorama sums it up: 'We're in the business of making profits, not cars.'"
Profits are, obviously, very important, but but that's quite a quote.
I agree with you -- the only thing they seem to care about regarding the brand is milking it for all of its profit potential, and without apparent concern for the long-term effects.
I've said this before: Many companies have failed because they failed to grow, but many have failed because they grew too fast and/or in the wrong direction.
Rebates to Porsche owners don't upset me nearly as much as watching the company I loved disappear.
From another thread:
The notion that Porsche is "trying to survive" by making SUVs strikes me as completely ridiculous -- they were (pre-Cayenne) and remain the most profitable car company on the planet. Obviously, that industry-leading margin wouldn't matter if sales evaporated, but that is clearly not the case. They could easily weather the recent downturn in sports car sales with the margins they earn. The 997 and the next Boxster will almost certainly sell very well.
Businesses obviously need to make money, but if we didn't have a few firms that focused only on specialty items, e.g., sports cars, the world would be a far less interesting place, IMHO.
I remember a Porsche advertisement (I think it was for the 996TT) that read something like, "It's not for everyone, but it's everything to someone." Sadly, they seem to be rushing to become something for everyone.
Porsche used to mean "sports cars" period. I find it a shame that this is no longer the case. Recently, I was talking with a friend and his acquaintance. When I mentioned Porsche, my friend's friend said, "Oh, they make that new SUV." How sad.
And another thread:
Originally posted by DC:
"Respectfully - if you haven't driven one and don't even have any interest to try it then how can you know anything about it that you didn't learn from someone else's impressions?
The Cayenne isn't a sports car.....don't compare it to one. Compare it to other SUV/SAV's and you will find that it, like the 911, is the best in its class."
I don't need to drive a Cayenne to have an opinion on this issue -- I know the Cayenne offers excellent performance, but that's completely missing the point. The point is that Porsche became the icon it is by building sports cars and racing at the top level. An SUV/SAV (SAV is BMW's term, BTW), to many of us, is utterly counter to everything we loved about Porsche -- the whole idea of a Porsche SUV is the problem, not how capable it is.
If they continue to grow into new categories, e.g., sedans, they will become just another car company in many people's eyes, including mine. Plenty of those diversified car companies have had their share of trouble over the years -- building not just sports cars is no guarantee of success. Besides, Porsche has been making a fortune on just sports cars, more than enough to weather the current downturn. The dealers aren't starving, either.
Originally posted by Mike in Chi:
"I'd rather have my next 911 built by a company that also makes a truck, than built by another company on a C-class platform."
Sadly, the platform sharing has already begun with the Cayenne/Touareg. I used to think Porsche must remain independent in order to continue building cars that make me lust after them. Platform sharing is one of the primary reasons I wanted them to remain independent, but it's happening anyway. Like Rezal, I might rather see Porsche as a part of another company IF it could then focus on sports car -- this is working for Ferrari and, apparently, for Lamborghini. However, Porsche was in no financial difficulty -- quite the opposite, in fact. There was no threat of being bought out, and they have plenty of money to develop new (sports) cars!
And finally, from another:
I certainly don't think Porsche should abandon cost-saving manufacturing methods -- failing to pay attention to this got them into such grave trouble in the early '90s (much more so than only being in the sports car business, IMO). However, it should be abundantly clear that they can build cars efficiently AND with high quality -- these are not mutually exclusive. The 993 is an excellent example of this -- it cost far less to build than the 964 (though more than the 996 and it shows), and the quality remained high. It also sold very well. Cost-efficient production does not mean they have to use cheap plastics in the interior, for example.
Porsche could build a car much like the GT3, but without that car's most exotic features and materials, and sell it for considerably less money. Give us the chassis set-up, for example. Make it somewhat like the 964 RS America. Yes, I'd like it to have a more race-worthy engine than the standard 996 -- we had that in all the air-cooled 911s -- but it need not have the very expensive engineering that goes into the GT3 engine. This need not be a $100,000 car.
To those of you who read this far: thanks for sticking with it, and my apologies for the length.
I would buy a new Porsche if they made something I'd rather have than my current 993. They don't. Further, since I'm only 36, I have a lot of potential new-Porsche-buying years ahead. So, I think Porsche SHOULD be interested in my opinion (whether they are is another story...). The following are some of my posts on similar topics from the 993 board (some of this may seem disjointed and repetitive since they're responses to comments on other threads, but the meaning comes through):
As Porsche has focused increasingly on appealing to a wider market, both within sports cars and especially beyond with the Cayenne, the build quality is dropping. Porsche's priorities are changing, and the company that built the cars I love looks like it's morphing into something that is no longer "special," more like BMW, Audi and Mercedes-Benz. They all make good cars, but none that inspires lust the way Porsche does (or did). Moving further away from sports cars and into SUVs and sedans will render Porsche just another German car company. Top-quality sports cars made Porsche. Neither top-quality nor sports cars seems to be the priority now.
Eric,
You posted: "Maybe the quote from the Porsche executive in last month's Panorama sums it up: 'We're in the business of making profits, not cars.'"
Profits are, obviously, very important, but but that's quite a quote.
I agree with you -- the only thing they seem to care about regarding the brand is milking it for all of its profit potential, and without apparent concern for the long-term effects.
I've said this before: Many companies have failed because they failed to grow, but many have failed because they grew too fast and/or in the wrong direction.
Rebates to Porsche owners don't upset me nearly as much as watching the company I loved disappear.
From another thread:
The notion that Porsche is "trying to survive" by making SUVs strikes me as completely ridiculous -- they were (pre-Cayenne) and remain the most profitable car company on the planet. Obviously, that industry-leading margin wouldn't matter if sales evaporated, but that is clearly not the case. They could easily weather the recent downturn in sports car sales with the margins they earn. The 997 and the next Boxster will almost certainly sell very well.
Businesses obviously need to make money, but if we didn't have a few firms that focused only on specialty items, e.g., sports cars, the world would be a far less interesting place, IMHO.
I remember a Porsche advertisement (I think it was for the 996TT) that read something like, "It's not for everyone, but it's everything to someone." Sadly, they seem to be rushing to become something for everyone.
Porsche used to mean "sports cars" period. I find it a shame that this is no longer the case. Recently, I was talking with a friend and his acquaintance. When I mentioned Porsche, my friend's friend said, "Oh, they make that new SUV." How sad.
And another thread:
Originally posted by DC:
"Respectfully - if you haven't driven one and don't even have any interest to try it then how can you know anything about it that you didn't learn from someone else's impressions?
The Cayenne isn't a sports car.....don't compare it to one. Compare it to other SUV/SAV's and you will find that it, like the 911, is the best in its class."
I don't need to drive a Cayenne to have an opinion on this issue -- I know the Cayenne offers excellent performance, but that's completely missing the point. The point is that Porsche became the icon it is by building sports cars and racing at the top level. An SUV/SAV (SAV is BMW's term, BTW), to many of us, is utterly counter to everything we loved about Porsche -- the whole idea of a Porsche SUV is the problem, not how capable it is.
If they continue to grow into new categories, e.g., sedans, they will become just another car company in many people's eyes, including mine. Plenty of those diversified car companies have had their share of trouble over the years -- building not just sports cars is no guarantee of success. Besides, Porsche has been making a fortune on just sports cars, more than enough to weather the current downturn. The dealers aren't starving, either.
Originally posted by Mike in Chi:
"I'd rather have my next 911 built by a company that also makes a truck, than built by another company on a C-class platform."
Sadly, the platform sharing has already begun with the Cayenne/Touareg. I used to think Porsche must remain independent in order to continue building cars that make me lust after them. Platform sharing is one of the primary reasons I wanted them to remain independent, but it's happening anyway. Like Rezal, I might rather see Porsche as a part of another company IF it could then focus on sports car -- this is working for Ferrari and, apparently, for Lamborghini. However, Porsche was in no financial difficulty -- quite the opposite, in fact. There was no threat of being bought out, and they have plenty of money to develop new (sports) cars!
And finally, from another:
I certainly don't think Porsche should abandon cost-saving manufacturing methods -- failing to pay attention to this got them into such grave trouble in the early '90s (much more so than only being in the sports car business, IMO). However, it should be abundantly clear that they can build cars efficiently AND with high quality -- these are not mutually exclusive. The 993 is an excellent example of this -- it cost far less to build than the 964 (though more than the 996 and it shows), and the quality remained high. It also sold very well. Cost-efficient production does not mean they have to use cheap plastics in the interior, for example.
Porsche could build a car much like the GT3, but without that car's most exotic features and materials, and sell it for considerably less money. Give us the chassis set-up, for example. Make it somewhat like the 964 RS America. Yes, I'd like it to have a more race-worthy engine than the standard 996 -- we had that in all the air-cooled 911s -- but it need not have the very expensive engineering that goes into the GT3 engine. This need not be a $100,000 car.
To those of you who read this far: thanks for sticking with it, and my apologies for the length.
Last edited by Speedraser; 01-09-2004 at 02:38 AM.
01-09-2004, 03:20 AM
#35
I have said it time and time again. The solution for Porsche today is quite simple. Fire Wendelin Wiedeking. Place Jurgen Barth as president. Or at least place him in a higher decision making position. For those who don't know who that man is, go out and buy some Porsche books. Then read. He has been there since he was a child. He is old school. He isn't part of the new Hugo Boss/Armani crew that is pissing us off. He is the part of the old school short sleeve, shave every few days, no bs crew who has guys like Roland Kussmaul among its ranks. Not only that, he is still young enough to cause an impact. Top it off, from reading a couple of interviews done in the last couple of years, he seems like he isn't too happy with things himself.
Oh, and I almost forgot. It isn't about hp. It's about power to weight ratios. If in doubt about that, just go and drive an early 911 or Lutus Elise. As for the company's independence. BS. Ferrari has been owned by FIAT for years and today it builds either sports cars, sports cars or sports cars. Nothing else. What is the fear of dependence here? That if Porsche were owned by VW they would have to build SUVs? My god, can you imagine that? Sorry but I had to be sarcastic. Oh, but it's a great SUV you say. Sure it is. But who the f. cares. I am sure that if Porsche made a septic tank, it would be the best septic tank in the world. But should Porshe be building septic tanks?
Oh well. As for me, I'll just keep saying JURGEN BARTH FOR PRESIDENT!
Oh, and I almost forgot. It isn't about hp. It's about power to weight ratios. If in doubt about that, just go and drive an early 911 or Lutus Elise. As for the company's independence. BS. Ferrari has been owned by FIAT for years and today it builds either sports cars, sports cars or sports cars. Nothing else. What is the fear of dependence here? That if Porsche were owned by VW they would have to build SUVs? My god, can you imagine that? Sorry but I had to be sarcastic. Oh, but it's a great SUV you say. Sure it is. But who the f. cares. I am sure that if Porsche made a septic tank, it would be the best septic tank in the world. But should Porshe be building septic tanks?
Oh well. As for me, I'll just keep saying JURGEN BARTH FOR PRESIDENT!
01-09-2004, 12:05 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
This has been a fantastic thread!
I concur about the evolving irrelevancy of the fear of being acquired by another company. Unfortunately, I believe that in trying to stave acquisition off, Porsche has inflicted upon itself most of the possible downsides of acquisition (platform sharing with a larger company, brand image dilution, etc as previously mentioned). It has in effect become the enemy it has sought to defend against.
The perceptible quality of the materials in the newer cars certainly seems off compared to 993 and earlier cars. Particularly interior materials. I can't see these cars wearing as well as the older ones, nor the engines turning the multiple 100k's you could get out of a 944 or an SC. Tiime will tell but I believe it is already doing so.
YMMV Al
I concur about the evolving irrelevancy of the fear of being acquired by another company. Unfortunately, I believe that in trying to stave acquisition off, Porsche has inflicted upon itself most of the possible downsides of acquisition (platform sharing with a larger company, brand image dilution, etc as previously mentioned). It has in effect become the enemy it has sought to defend against.
The perceptible quality of the materials in the newer cars certainly seems off compared to 993 and earlier cars. Particularly interior materials. I can't see these cars wearing as well as the older ones, nor the engines turning the multiple 100k's you could get out of a 944 or an SC. Tiime will tell but I believe it is already doing so.
YMMV Al
01-09-2004, 05:57 PM
#37
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I disagree to some extent that the quality is down. Based on some consumer magazines, the 996 seems to have fewer problems per vehicle on average than the 993 did. Only time will tell if this continues to be the case. The quality of the interior was much improved starting with the 2002 models when they did the minor face lift, so it seems Porsche was listening to the critics somewhat.
The Boxster quality is also improved over the early cars, though it is admittedly not as nice as the 996, the Boxster is cheaper. Having owned a 944, 944 Turbo and a 968, I don't think the Boxster interior is any worse than any of those models. Those cars all rattled from the hatch and the sunroof and the dashboards cracked.
I do lament Porsche's use of the cheap-feeling plastics that all the others now use, but it probably will hold up better. I doubt we'll see the warped and cracked dashboards of the older Porsches on the 996. Certain things I miss, like the trigger door handles, the frame around the windows on the coupes, the big analog gauge cluster, and air cooling, to name a few, but they have to make advancements. The 993 was the final culmination of everything they could do with that platform. They had to move on, and the 996 is not a terrible way to do it. I personally prefer the 993, but the 996 is an undeniably good sports car. I'm sure the 997 will be even better.
-Sean
The Boxster quality is also improved over the early cars, though it is admittedly not as nice as the 996, the Boxster is cheaper. Having owned a 944, 944 Turbo and a 968, I don't think the Boxster interior is any worse than any of those models. Those cars all rattled from the hatch and the sunroof and the dashboards cracked.
I do lament Porsche's use of the cheap-feeling plastics that all the others now use, but it probably will hold up better. I doubt we'll see the warped and cracked dashboards of the older Porsches on the 996. Certain things I miss, like the trigger door handles, the frame around the windows on the coupes, the big analog gauge cluster, and air cooling, to name a few, but they have to make advancements. The 993 was the final culmination of everything they could do with that platform. They had to move on, and the 996 is not a terrible way to do it. I personally prefer the 993, but the 996 is an undeniably good sports car. I'm sure the 997 will be even better.
-Sean
01-09-2004, 07:12 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Time will indeed tell of the newer cars' longevity. I have seen a number of higher-mile examples of the 996 and 986 and the interior materials certainly seem to wear fast. In fact, I recall the first time the impression of cheesiness struck me: I was at the local dealer looking at lightly-used 996s, and I saw a number of examples of unexpected wear (paint coming off of speaker grilles, etc) that really turned me off in combination with the general blandness of the 996 design.
Subjectively and in terms of overall impression, I think the plastics and other materials appear cheap for the cars' price range, even after the recent redo. Porsche could learn a thing or two about creating an impression of quality/luxury from the current Audis. It's certainly subjective but impressions count for a lot in the segment these cars compete in.
I have no firsthand knowledge of the engines' longevity, as I don't own one or work on them. However, I keep reading comments in Excellence and other publications about sloppy tolerances, overrated and inconsistent engine output, and of course the well-known early engine problems. Combine it all with the comments about "we make money, no sports cars" or whatever, turning the collective back on top-end racing, and it just all paints a disturbing picture.
Since I will probably be quite happy with my older Porsches for a long time, none of it affects my bank account. I do wonder about future generations' perception of the marque after all that made it special is gone.
Subjectively and in terms of overall impression, I think the plastics and other materials appear cheap for the cars' price range, even after the recent redo. Porsche could learn a thing or two about creating an impression of quality/luxury from the current Audis. It's certainly subjective but impressions count for a lot in the segment these cars compete in.
I have no firsthand knowledge of the engines' longevity, as I don't own one or work on them. However, I keep reading comments in Excellence and other publications about sloppy tolerances, overrated and inconsistent engine output, and of course the well-known early engine problems. Combine it all with the comments about "we make money, no sports cars" or whatever, turning the collective back on top-end racing, and it just all paints a disturbing picture.
Since I will probably be quite happy with my older Porsches for a long time, none of it affects my bank account. I do wonder about future generations' perception of the marque after all that made it special is gone.
01-09-2004, 08:17 PM
#40
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I visited the L A auto show yesterday and heard a guy asking one of the girls at the Porsche display about cupholders. She proudly showed him the cupholder in a new Boxster. I looked and remarked, "real sports car drivers don't need cupholders." He had kind of a funny look on his face, while a couple of other guys standing nearby laughed. I guess some people consider those things important.
01-09-2004, 09:15 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
Sean,
I think the build quality of the 993 is far superior to the 986 and 996 (and the Cayenne), including the newer improved cars. The interior materials, IMO, are still quite poor in comparison, and the fit leaves a lot to be desired. Look at the way the center console fits (where the top of it meets the dash and where the bottom part meets the tunnel). It's terrible. The stalks to (I think) adjust the instrument lighting and reset the trip odometer are unbelievably flimsy (they protrude from the dash either side of the speedo). The sound the 993 doors make when they close is simply in a league so far above that of the 996/986 that a comparison is pointless. This is when a 996/986 is brand new -- I've heard many 996/986 doors close that are a few years old, and they clank horribly. The 996/986's M96 engine is not good enough to use in the Turbo, GT2, or GT3, which instead use a development of the air-cooled engine -- a totally different unit from the standard 986/996. The apparent prevalence of rear main seal problems in the M96 engine is very disconcerting. The reports of rattles from 996 owners is very disturbing. Neither my 54K mile 993 nor my 68K mile 911SC rattle at all -- they're both absolutely solid.
The 996/986 are great cars in many ways, but they simply can't compete from the build quality perspective, IMO. The difference in interior quality between new Porsches and Audis is HUGE. This is a big deal to me, as quality is a big reason I became interested in Porsche in the first place.
I think the build quality of the 993 is far superior to the 986 and 996 (and the Cayenne), including the newer improved cars. The interior materials, IMO, are still quite poor in comparison, and the fit leaves a lot to be desired. Look at the way the center console fits (where the top of it meets the dash and where the bottom part meets the tunnel). It's terrible. The stalks to (I think) adjust the instrument lighting and reset the trip odometer are unbelievably flimsy (they protrude from the dash either side of the speedo). The sound the 993 doors make when they close is simply in a league so far above that of the 996/986 that a comparison is pointless. This is when a 996/986 is brand new -- I've heard many 996/986 doors close that are a few years old, and they clank horribly. The 996/986's M96 engine is not good enough to use in the Turbo, GT2, or GT3, which instead use a development of the air-cooled engine -- a totally different unit from the standard 986/996. The apparent prevalence of rear main seal problems in the M96 engine is very disconcerting. The reports of rattles from 996 owners is very disturbing. Neither my 54K mile 993 nor my 68K mile 911SC rattle at all -- they're both absolutely solid.
The 996/986 are great cars in many ways, but they simply can't compete from the build quality perspective, IMO. The difference in interior quality between new Porsches and Audis is HUGE. This is a big deal to me, as quality is a big reason I became interested in Porsche in the first place.
01-09-2004, 10:48 PM
#42
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WOW. This keeps getting better. Don't remember who said it, but the counter point was that a more affordable new 944 would cause brand disassociation. Any MORE so than an enthusiasts' 944. Hell, how 'BOUT a new 914?
I agree with Pete's original post now more than ever. They didn't take the damn Cayenne to Dakar? What's wrong??
Yes, it has been said that Porsche could give two ****s about what I think. I'm returning to school this fall (Cougar High, aka- Univ. of Houston), and while I hope to someday be able to afford a newer car, my first Porsche will probably NOT be a GT2. So why does Porsche need to bother with working stiffs like me?
Because if they DID build a $30K 944 or a $25K 914 I'd buy it. So would a lot of us. Option delete cars are great, man, and Porsche REALLY should shoot whomever is responsible for keeping a Boxster CS and even a 996 CS down. Publicly execute the jerkoff. What was his name Ed??
I know we're all just talking off the top of our opinionated heads, but how would offering the sports car excellence at a lower level be a BAD thing? I'm of the opinion it would lend some much needed credibility to the brand. Let VW/ Audi make the profits, guys! Kudos to whomever made the Ferrari point. ALL the have EVER done is sports cars, sports cars, and sports cars. Fiat foots the bill for them. Clueless. We DO need that Jurgen guy in charge...
Again, just MY slant on the Cayenne, but WHY make the same damn thing everyone else is making?? It's just a another worthless, over priced, ill-handling station wagon. And the ones that handle good are worthless trucks. Yeah, I know. Same deal as a hardcore sportscar. Hardcore SUV's don't pay the rent. I thought Nissan was on track with the X-Terra, but more than HALF of those sold are 2WD poser-rides.
So, here I am asking the same question Pete started this thread with. WHEN did carmakers lose their *****?? It's a shame what even the vaunted Land Cruiser has become. Another gas guzzling, luxury burdened status symbol. Is that what Porsche has become? I just read the R & T first look at the C6 Vette, and damn if they DIDN'T do it right. Looks REAL right, but it too has got some new-tech electric door latches. NO manual door latches; which begs the question, what if you're trapped inside with a dead battery??
I say it's a trend. Car & Driver's Top 10 article brought up an interesting point last month. They were slamming some SAV/SUV for it's electric-opening hatch. Do we NEED that?? Do we NEED self-retracting running boards? How long before the added weight and maintenance rears it's head and the buyers begin to return to simpler rides?
Geez, man. Sorry I took this WAY off the beaten path. Guess I had something to say. I'm with Ed. Make the bean counters pedal tricycles around Nurburing for 100 laps (during a 24-hour Saloon Car enduro) everytime they come over from the VW/ Audi offices to Stuttgart. Bass-turds!!
I agree with Pete's original post now more than ever. They didn't take the damn Cayenne to Dakar? What's wrong??
Yes, it has been said that Porsche could give two ****s about what I think. I'm returning to school this fall (Cougar High, aka- Univ. of Houston), and while I hope to someday be able to afford a newer car, my first Porsche will probably NOT be a GT2. So why does Porsche need to bother with working stiffs like me?
Because if they DID build a $30K 944 or a $25K 914 I'd buy it. So would a lot of us. Option delete cars are great, man, and Porsche REALLY should shoot whomever is responsible for keeping a Boxster CS and even a 996 CS down. Publicly execute the jerkoff. What was his name Ed??
I know we're all just talking off the top of our opinionated heads, but how would offering the sports car excellence at a lower level be a BAD thing? I'm of the opinion it would lend some much needed credibility to the brand. Let VW/ Audi make the profits, guys! Kudos to whomever made the Ferrari point. ALL the have EVER done is sports cars, sports cars, and sports cars. Fiat foots the bill for them. Clueless. We DO need that Jurgen guy in charge...
Again, just MY slant on the Cayenne, but WHY make the same damn thing everyone else is making?? It's just a another worthless, over priced, ill-handling station wagon. And the ones that handle good are worthless trucks. Yeah, I know. Same deal as a hardcore sportscar. Hardcore SUV's don't pay the rent. I thought Nissan was on track with the X-Terra, but more than HALF of those sold are 2WD poser-rides.
So, here I am asking the same question Pete started this thread with. WHEN did carmakers lose their *****?? It's a shame what even the vaunted Land Cruiser has become. Another gas guzzling, luxury burdened status symbol. Is that what Porsche has become? I just read the R & T first look at the C6 Vette, and damn if they DIDN'T do it right. Looks REAL right, but it too has got some new-tech electric door latches. NO manual door latches; which begs the question, what if you're trapped inside with a dead battery??
I say it's a trend. Car & Driver's Top 10 article brought up an interesting point last month. They were slamming some SAV/SUV for it's electric-opening hatch. Do we NEED that?? Do we NEED self-retracting running boards? How long before the added weight and maintenance rears it's head and the buyers begin to return to simpler rides?
Geez, man. Sorry I took this WAY off the beaten path. Guess I had something to say. I'm with Ed. Make the bean counters pedal tricycles around Nurburing for 100 laps (during a 24-hour Saloon Car enduro) everytime they come over from the VW/ Audi offices to Stuttgart. Bass-turds!!
01-10-2004, 01:35 AM
#43
Here is a good read on the subject guys. http://www.sportscarpros.com/penalty...e-years-ahead/ On the subject of when did carmakers lose their *****. That one is easy. When the average male became a metrosexual and lost his. It is true. Just the other day my sister was commenting on how the average male today wants so much poshness out of a sports car when she herself wants none in her 911. But then again, my sister is cool and hates being a token woman. Men are no longer men though. They want powered cup holders, and soft touch interiors so they don't damage their manicured nails. At some point, even the Germans appeased these people. After all, these metrosexuals are spreading like wildfire. Then to top it off, German car makers start acting like Asian car makers. They now wear suits fit for Milan while eating sushi for lunch. And this is supposed to be the Porshe I looked forward to when I was a kid? I want the company I worshiped when young but was too young to drive. The whole situation makes me sick. AHHH. That's it, I am going to go take my uncivilized, no-sissy-need-aply, non-muffled 911 out for a wild ride and try to forget the whole thing.
Back in 86, when I was 16, I was afraid that when I turned 30 in 2000, the world would be filled with electric cars and life would suck. Little did I know that the electric cars are not here but the gas cars are not only boring, but ugly as hell to boot. Sure they are fast. But like jetliners, the speed isn't even felt any more. Little did I know then that most cars today would be built for sissy wimps with no taste, driving skill and automotive historical knowledge by companies lacking the required cojones to stick to their original ideals. It is sad.
Back in 86, when I was 16, I was afraid that when I turned 30 in 2000, the world would be filled with electric cars and life would suck. Little did I know that the electric cars are not here but the gas cars are not only boring, but ugly as hell to boot. Sure they are fast. But like jetliners, the speed isn't even felt any more. Little did I know then that most cars today would be built for sissy wimps with no taste, driving skill and automotive historical knowledge by companies lacking the required cojones to stick to their original ideals. It is sad.
01-10-2004, 01:53 AM
#44
Three Wheelin'
Whew! My turn...
A stripped out model based on the upcoming Boxster coupe would be fantastic but Porsche has a history of stripping out models and then jacking the price UP! A good example of this was the Carrera 3.2 ClubSport from the late 80s. I know it had a blueprinted engine but it had little creature comforts to speak of and cost much more than the standard Carrera. Besides, a lightweight Boxster would kick a standard 966s ***. Porsche learned their lesson when their cheapo 944 Turbo would keep a Carrera 3.2 in its sights and blow its air-cooled doors off with a few mods. Still, if the Italians can make lower cost cars (360 Modena, Gallardo) that are as quick as its hi-line cars (575M, Murcielago), why can't Porsche?
As for the late-model cars, it took me a long time to warm up to the 996 but I think I'm finally there. It was actually this picture that opened my eyes... maybe because it looks very 80s Carrera-esque with the black wheel centers.
I do agree that the noise emitted from the doors of the new cars sounds rattly and Japanese in origin and doesn't lend itself to a $100K+ car. The Boxster seems better, perhaps the reinforcing in the structure to compensate for the roof being MIA? I would buy a Boxster coupe for sure if I had the money, a 996? Hmm. I think that the GT3 is the deal of the century being priced around loaded Carrera 4 money and offering turbo performance and would make my short list of dream cars but it's the only new 911 that I would consider. The new C4S and turbo cabriolets are just image candy for rich poseurs... regardless of what the British car fans think, real sports cars have solid roofs!
The Cayenne... best not talk about that. Give it a few years with wicked depreciation and we'll all have one as a beater. It may become the used-Porsche #1 performance buy like the 944 Turbo is now. Huge performance for no money. You just know these things will not hold their value, especially when the SUV fad ends... hopefully soon.
Four door Porsche? Sigh... it IS your father's Oldsmobile...
One last note: everyone is saying how great it is that Porsche is the only independant car maker out there... why? Would it be so bad if Porsche was swallowed by the VW-Audi conglomerate? Heck, they're sharing engineering and parts already and ask any one on the street and they think Porsche is already owned by VeeDub. Fiat hasn't ruined Ferrari (Ferrari did with that hideous Enzo... ick!) so why would VW ruin Porsche? I think they'd know what an image brand like Porsche would do for them. It might actually improve Porsche as they could use VW money to concentrate on building the world's best sports cars and let VW build the SUVs and family sedans.
That's all... I hope Porsche is listening! Wendelin, are you out there?!?
A stripped out model based on the upcoming Boxster coupe would be fantastic but Porsche has a history of stripping out models and then jacking the price UP! A good example of this was the Carrera 3.2 ClubSport from the late 80s. I know it had a blueprinted engine but it had little creature comforts to speak of and cost much more than the standard Carrera. Besides, a lightweight Boxster would kick a standard 966s ***. Porsche learned their lesson when their cheapo 944 Turbo would keep a Carrera 3.2 in its sights and blow its air-cooled doors off with a few mods. Still, if the Italians can make lower cost cars (360 Modena, Gallardo) that are as quick as its hi-line cars (575M, Murcielago), why can't Porsche?
As for the late-model cars, it took me a long time to warm up to the 996 but I think I'm finally there. It was actually this picture that opened my eyes... maybe because it looks very 80s Carrera-esque with the black wheel centers.
I do agree that the noise emitted from the doors of the new cars sounds rattly and Japanese in origin and doesn't lend itself to a $100K+ car. The Boxster seems better, perhaps the reinforcing in the structure to compensate for the roof being MIA? I would buy a Boxster coupe for sure if I had the money, a 996? Hmm. I think that the GT3 is the deal of the century being priced around loaded Carrera 4 money and offering turbo performance and would make my short list of dream cars but it's the only new 911 that I would consider. The new C4S and turbo cabriolets are just image candy for rich poseurs... regardless of what the British car fans think, real sports cars have solid roofs!
The Cayenne... best not talk about that. Give it a few years with wicked depreciation and we'll all have one as a beater. It may become the used-Porsche #1 performance buy like the 944 Turbo is now. Huge performance for no money. You just know these things will not hold their value, especially when the SUV fad ends... hopefully soon.
Four door Porsche? Sigh... it IS your father's Oldsmobile...
One last note: everyone is saying how great it is that Porsche is the only independant car maker out there... why? Would it be so bad if Porsche was swallowed by the VW-Audi conglomerate? Heck, they're sharing engineering and parts already and ask any one on the street and they think Porsche is already owned by VeeDub. Fiat hasn't ruined Ferrari (Ferrari did with that hideous Enzo... ick!) so why would VW ruin Porsche? I think they'd know what an image brand like Porsche would do for them. It might actually improve Porsche as they could use VW money to concentrate on building the world's best sports cars and let VW build the SUVs and family sedans.
That's all... I hope Porsche is listening! Wendelin, are you out there?!?
01-10-2004, 10:31 PM
#45
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Ed, NOW we're getting down to the meat-n-taters of the issue. I guess you hit on what I was trying to figure out, man. Things ARE different. In the race to leave the stoic, insensitive Victorian principles behind, man left behind the good stuff from that way of life as well.
My hair stylist of 10 years ended up in a high-end salon in the Galleria area some years ago, and trusting her like I do, I bring my business there now. Alas, I cannot help but shake my head in wonder at these men (MEN, I say) who are sitting down at the manicure station. You're a man?? WAY too strange. And I'm no slob. Being actively single means personal hygeine is a high priority. But even I can go out without any product in my hair or having skipped a shave.
Exc911ence, I agree with you about the Cayenne, although I don't think 944's lower resale value is a reflection of their quality. Quite simply, they WERE the cheaper, entry level cars, and the sad truth is that MOST of them are high-mileage examples with all the associated problems.
I still contend this: A new Audi powered (turbo-4) 944 would still lend MUCH more credibility to the Porsche marque than that damn wagon. If the Boxster really IS the spiritual successor to the Spyder, you'd have brought out the Speedster version of it long ago. Or wait, was that all a buncha hype to sell a slew of them to the euro-trash, new-age yuppies??
EXACTLY.
I swear, man. We NEED the Can- Am series back. The rip-****, tear-*** brutes can make this all better. No push-button shifting allowed, limit the wings a bit more than the old cars, but let the horsepower FLOW like water down a hillside. The real men who will step up to tame said beasts will remind us that all is NOT lost. Wonder what Donohue, Gurney, and AJ are up to these days??
My hair stylist of 10 years ended up in a high-end salon in the Galleria area some years ago, and trusting her like I do, I bring my business there now. Alas, I cannot help but shake my head in wonder at these men (MEN, I say) who are sitting down at the manicure station. You're a man?? WAY too strange. And I'm no slob. Being actively single means personal hygeine is a high priority. But even I can go out without any product in my hair or having skipped a shave.
Exc911ence, I agree with you about the Cayenne, although I don't think 944's lower resale value is a reflection of their quality. Quite simply, they WERE the cheaper, entry level cars, and the sad truth is that MOST of them are high-mileage examples with all the associated problems.
I still contend this: A new Audi powered (turbo-4) 944 would still lend MUCH more credibility to the Porsche marque than that damn wagon. If the Boxster really IS the spiritual successor to the Spyder, you'd have brought out the Speedster version of it long ago. Or wait, was that all a buncha hype to sell a slew of them to the euro-trash, new-age yuppies??
EXACTLY.
I swear, man. We NEED the Can- Am series back. The rip-****, tear-*** brutes can make this all better. No push-button shifting allowed, limit the wings a bit more than the old cars, but let the horsepower FLOW like water down a hillside. The real men who will step up to tame said beasts will remind us that all is NOT lost. Wonder what Donohue, Gurney, and AJ are up to these days??