Track Rat GT4 Owner Dilemma
07-05-2024, 10:58 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
1. Spend money on safety (1/2 roll cage, harnesses, head-neck restraint)
2. Spend money on private, professional coaching
3. Get more seat time.
You can become VERY fast VERY quickly in these incredibly capable cars. But you don’t know what you don’t know. You don’t have enough EXPERIENCE to know what to do to avoid a serious crash (or try to minimize the outcome).
I have a friend who got VERY fast in her 981 GT4. She spent money on safety, but she kept going faster and faster but hadn’t had coaching and didn’t have a ton of experience. She lost it in the Esses at the Glen. Car was totaled. She was injured (passed out cold) and fortunately came back from it, but she was going far too fast for her experience level. It’s not known whether it was driver error or mechanical, but no mechanical explanation was definitely discovered.
Twelve track days is nothing. And no disrespect, but I don’t count auto cross as being relevant in any significant way to driving on a road course at triple digit speeds. There is so much to learn and it takes a lot of track days (for which there is no substitute). Maybe driving on a SIM is helpful to some degree, but you need to embed proper habits and truly learn your car, your tires, your limits before you actually need a new car.
Maybe racing is in your future and maybe plenty more cars. But after 12 track days, my suggestion is to get whatever safety upgrades are possible and to spend some money on a good coach. Once you’ve done that, and once you have more experience and are truly reaching the limits of your equipment, then you could consider what is next.
One of the problems instructors face is exactly this situation. The cars make people really fast. The cars save people (and most of the time the driver has no idea the car intervened). I’m not saying you are unaware of your car’s electronic safety equipment, but a lot of drivers are clueless. A good coach in the right seat, and/or with the right data acquisition can inform you of where you need to improve so you can be fast and safe.
I speak from some experience as I started in a high horsepower car and went progressively lower until I truly learned how to properly drive it (went from 600 to 550 to 505 to 350 HP). It was the 350HP, manual car that kicked my @ss when I wasn’t in the correct gear, or when my heel/toe work wasn’t excellent. That car taught me MORE than any prior car. And I was doing on average 25-30 days per year (I live 30 min from a track). Only when I truly was consistently reaching the limits of my car did I consider going “bigger” (more HP/torque/capability). That was after few years and many track days.
And oh by the way, I was also on staff at the track teaching car control clinics - sometimes 3x/week over the winter. We did skidpad work along with swerve to avoid and all the classic car control maneuvers. I got a ton of time at the wheel (demonstrating every drill for my students). This helped with developing a “butt-o-meter” that had decent sensitivity so I could really feel what my car was doing (or about to do). Harnesses also help to be “one” with the car.
Best of luck on this incredibly fun and rewarding journey!
2. Spend money on private, professional coaching
3. Get more seat time.
You can become VERY fast VERY quickly in these incredibly capable cars. But you don’t know what you don’t know. You don’t have enough EXPERIENCE to know what to do to avoid a serious crash (or try to minimize the outcome).
I have a friend who got VERY fast in her 981 GT4. She spent money on safety, but she kept going faster and faster but hadn’t had coaching and didn’t have a ton of experience. She lost it in the Esses at the Glen. Car was totaled. She was injured (passed out cold) and fortunately came back from it, but she was going far too fast for her experience level. It’s not known whether it was driver error or mechanical, but no mechanical explanation was definitely discovered.
Twelve track days is nothing. And no disrespect, but I don’t count auto cross as being relevant in any significant way to driving on a road course at triple digit speeds. There is so much to learn and it takes a lot of track days (for which there is no substitute). Maybe driving on a SIM is helpful to some degree, but you need to embed proper habits and truly learn your car, your tires, your limits before you actually need a new car.
Maybe racing is in your future and maybe plenty more cars. But after 12 track days, my suggestion is to get whatever safety upgrades are possible and to spend some money on a good coach. Once you’ve done that, and once you have more experience and are truly reaching the limits of your equipment, then you could consider what is next.
One of the problems instructors face is exactly this situation. The cars make people really fast. The cars save people (and most of the time the driver has no idea the car intervened). I’m not saying you are unaware of your car’s electronic safety equipment, but a lot of drivers are clueless. A good coach in the right seat, and/or with the right data acquisition can inform you of where you need to improve so you can be fast and safe.
I speak from some experience as I started in a high horsepower car and went progressively lower until I truly learned how to properly drive it (went from 600 to 550 to 505 to 350 HP). It was the 350HP, manual car that kicked my @ss when I wasn’t in the correct gear, or when my heel/toe work wasn’t excellent. That car taught me MORE than any prior car. And I was doing on average 25-30 days per year (I live 30 min from a track). Only when I truly was consistently reaching the limits of my car did I consider going “bigger” (more HP/torque/capability). That was after few years and many track days.
And oh by the way, I was also on staff at the track teaching car control clinics - sometimes 3x/week over the winter. We did skidpad work along with swerve to avoid and all the classic car control maneuvers. I got a ton of time at the wheel (demonstrating every drill for my students). This helped with developing a “butt-o-meter” that had decent sensitivity so I could really feel what my car was doing (or about to do). Harnesses also help to be “one” with the car.
Best of luck on this incredibly fun and rewarding journey!
I appreciate all the input. I do admit I still have a lot to learn in my driving. Just wanted to be confident I was on a platform I could grow into that will hold up to the repeated track use.
I've had some instruction, both professional and amateur, and still regularly talk to my racing school instructor for pointers on my track videos. My next track day I'm having an advanced group instructor ride along to help me refine my driving after I've increased my pace.
I don't agree on the autocross experience not being applicable to track driving, though. While the speeds are lower, I've had my share of spinouts at speeds as high as 80mph pushing the limits of the car on the autocross course, and I'm better at feeling the where the edge is than someone with the same number of track days and no autocross experience. Even a few instructors at the racing school made comments about it in the car control exercises. My biggest challenge transitioning from the autox to track was slowing my inputs down, and I will admit I still have to remind myself to smooth things out from time to time.
I've been looking into some seats but I need to get to a place who has them where I can sit in a few before pulling the trigger on that. I'd love the LWBS, but with how expensive they are I might as well just sell mine and buy a car that came with them! (hence the reason for my initial inquiry)
07-06-2024, 02:19 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
I hate these nonsense unthoughtful resposnses. Did you read the list of mods? Seats, Harness, Rollbar, Motorsport coliovers, etc... all of which may or may not make OP a better/faster driver time wise but it will make OP a more comfortable and thus safer driver. With that comes speed and better times.
Last edited by dnimi123; 07-06-2024 at 02:24 AM.
07-06-2024, 06:52 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
Well I feel I'm soon to reach the limits of the current build and wondering whether I should drop another ~$30-40k on seats, harnesses, rollbar, MCS dampers, aero, headers, tune, etc, or just enjoy this as is for a bit, then get into something like a 991.2 GT3 to really go fast and not need as many mods.
Once you’ve plateaued after the safety and coaching, then you’ll have more experience to help you decide what the next step should be, and you may find that the car as it sits at that point may be enough.
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07-06-2024, 11:03 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
I hate these nonsense unthoughtful resposnses. Did you read the list of mods? Seats, Harness, Rollbar, Motorsport coliovers, etc... all of which may or may not make OP a better/faster driver time wise but it will make OP a more comfortable and thus safer driver. With that comes speed and better times.
07-06-2024, 11:37 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
It does not seem that OP was in that category.... Aaaand even if he was, if it makes them happy, safer and more comfortable when learning ti go faster what do you care? Im an OK driver and made may mods that have enhganced my driving and the process of learning. There is no right answer as your previous post suggested.
07-06-2024, 11:52 PM
#21
It hasn't been said yet, but if I was in the OP's position and had the funds to do so, I would move to a McLaren 750S for serious track work. Carbon tub and air brakes can be game changers.
07-07-2024, 12:13 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
I think i had well over 30 track days in lower powered cars before I bought my first GT3. I was already in the advanced/open passing groups by then. Probably good I waited because it was more challenging at the limit that the AWD cars I'd cut my teeth on. All I ever added to that car was buckets, harnesses, HANS and a spare set of wheels, pads and fluid. I did a lot of days and got a lot of coaching and data and I'm glad I did. I learned how setup impacted handling and continued to improve my driving, my experience and my ability to handle the car at the limit. My progression is just one path but I think it's a good one. I did some performance mods to one of my GT cars and the change in lap times wasn't huge. On the other hand, coaching and more days ALWAY did. I very much recommend that path for at least another year or so. So easy to keep up with the FLAT OUT crowd by buying speed. If that's what you want, just be honest about it. The GT4 is a VERY capable car and you still have a lot of room to grow.
How about this...hire a pro to set a benchmark lap at your favorite track in your car and when you get anywhere near that, you might be outgrowing it
How about this...hire a pro to set a benchmark lap at your favorite track in your car and when you get anywhere near that, you might be outgrowing it
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07-07-2024, 12:26 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
It does not seem that OP was in that category.... Aaaand even if he was, if it makes them happy, safer and more comfortable when learning ti go faster what do you care? Im an OK driver and made may mods that have enhganced my driving and the process of learning. There is no right answer as your previous post suggested.
07-07-2024, 12:20 PM
#24
You are already in a super solid car that is designed for repeated usage on track days, from an engineering standpoint. I would only consider moving “upwards” to a car with a GT3 motor if you come across a terrific deal or if you are just flat out bored with your current car.
For me, track days are all about developing my own skill and nitpicking a lot of the areas I can improve. The lap times are a representation of my progress and an indicator of where I stand in relation to how much more room I have to grow before I can say “it’s not me it’s the car.” Thankfully, there’s a great community of GT car track addicts in my area to help give me a sense of where I am.
I fully agree with the comments here that before you switch cars, consider:
1. Getting an idea of what really quick, experienced drivers can do in an equivalent car—similar mods to you or even more stock. Hopefully your community is such where there are a good amount of GT4 owners out there that track to get that data.
2. Getting better seats + roll cage + harness. There are plenty of good non-LWBS seat options out there that look good and can be used for non-track work as well. And harness and roll cage is a worthy investment in your safety as you continue to get faster. The harness will also help with performance as you’ll be much more locked into your (bucket) seat. The experience will be completely different compared to sofas. And you can keep using your hybrid s as well. The cage, harnesses, and installation should run you around $6k installed, or less if you only need harnesses for one side. Seats can get more expensive, depending on whether you go with LWBS or a nice Recaro, but you should be able to recoup a good amount of that on resale if necessary.
Do not underestimate the difference in experience with just doing the above. Having a solid benchmark to target, plus some additional mods to help with safety and really securing you in can be huge.
But it’s totally understandable as well that you might want something new. Just also keep in mind that the difference in track insurance costs is significant as the value of the car goes up. My insurance now with my RS is 2x what it cost for my GT4. And with the GT3 route, bigger tires also means a bit more expense.
For me, track days are all about developing my own skill and nitpicking a lot of the areas I can improve. The lap times are a representation of my progress and an indicator of where I stand in relation to how much more room I have to grow before I can say “it’s not me it’s the car.” Thankfully, there’s a great community of GT car track addicts in my area to help give me a sense of where I am.
I fully agree with the comments here that before you switch cars, consider:
1. Getting an idea of what really quick, experienced drivers can do in an equivalent car—similar mods to you or even more stock. Hopefully your community is such where there are a good amount of GT4 owners out there that track to get that data.
2. Getting better seats + roll cage + harness. There are plenty of good non-LWBS seat options out there that look good and can be used for non-track work as well. And harness and roll cage is a worthy investment in your safety as you continue to get faster. The harness will also help with performance as you’ll be much more locked into your (bucket) seat. The experience will be completely different compared to sofas. And you can keep using your hybrid s as well. The cage, harnesses, and installation should run you around $6k installed, or less if you only need harnesses for one side. Seats can get more expensive, depending on whether you go with LWBS or a nice Recaro, but you should be able to recoup a good amount of that on resale if necessary.
Do not underestimate the difference in experience with just doing the above. Having a solid benchmark to target, plus some additional mods to help with safety and really securing you in can be huge.
But it’s totally understandable as well that you might want something new. Just also keep in mind that the difference in track insurance costs is significant as the value of the car goes up. My insurance now with my RS is 2x what it cost for my GT4. And with the GT3 route, bigger tires also means a bit more expense.
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07-07-2024, 01:25 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
….
2. Getting better seats + roll cage + harness. There are plenty of good non-LWBS seat options out there that look good and can be used for non-track work as well. And harness and roll cage is a worthy investment in your safety as you continue to get faster. The harness will also help with performance as you’ll be much more locked into your (bucket) seat. The experience will be completely different compared to sofas. And you can keep using your hybrid s as well. The cage, harnesses, and installation should run you around $6k installed, or less if you only need harnesses for one side. Seats can get more expensive, depending on whether you go with LWBS or a nice Recaro, but you should be able to recoup a good amount of that on resale if necessary…..
2. Getting better seats + roll cage + harness. There are plenty of good non-LWBS seat options out there that look good and can be used for non-track work as well. And harness and roll cage is a worthy investment in your safety as you continue to get faster. The harness will also help with performance as you’ll be much more locked into your (bucket) seat. The experience will be completely different compared to sofas. And you can keep using your hybrid s as well. The cage, harnesses, and installation should run you around $6k installed, or less if you only need harnesses for one side. Seats can get more expensive, depending on whether you go with LWBS or a nice Recaro, but you should be able to recoup a good amount of that on resale if necessary…..
Get an equal setup for both seats. When you’re driving solo, you just buckle the passenger harnesses and snug them to keep them in place. But when you want a passenger you have the proper safety equipment for both people.
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07-07-2024, 01:39 PM
#26
Harnesses for one side is a mistake IMO. It’s a very small percent of the overall cost (the seats and cage is the significant cost). It might depend on what clubs you run with, but PCA requires equal restraints for both driver and passenger, and head/neck restraints when using harnesses. If you intend to hire a coach in your right seat, I cannot imagine ANY pro coach willing to get into a car where the driver is strapped into harnesses and the coach is iin a 3pt seatbelt (even if they are wearing their Simpson Hybrid S).
Get an equal setup for both seats. When you’re driving solo, you just buckle the passenger harnesses and snug them to keep them in place. But when you want a passenger you have the proper safety equipment for both people.
Get an equal setup for both seats. When you’re driving solo, you just buckle the passenger harnesses and snug them to keep them in place. But when you want a passenger you have the proper safety equipment for both people.
Last edited by KelvinC; 07-07-2024 at 01:44 PM.
07-07-2024, 07:13 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Sounds like this platform will do me well for a while. I found a local shop that stocks a whole bunch of seats and harnesses, and is familiar with Porsche fitment, brackets, etc. and I'll figure what options they offer that fit me.
The mods I've put into the car (besides the kline exhaust) were all to address tire wear and improve driver confidence. I haven't done anything to get me a shortcut around driver experience in an effort to cut lap times.
As for what a pro can do in my car, feel free to search lap times at both tracks I mentioned and you can get an idea.
Thanks to those who answered my questions.
The mods I've put into the car (besides the kline exhaust) were all to address tire wear and improve driver confidence. I haven't done anything to get me a shortcut around driver experience in an effort to cut lap times.
As for what a pro can do in my car, feel free to search lap times at both tracks I mentioned and you can get an idea.
Thanks to those who answered my questions.
07-08-2024, 07:24 AM
#28
I've been doing track days for 14 years. My advice is do everything in your power to avoid getting in a modifications arms race. There is absolutely no satisfaction to be had from modifying a car to go faster. Nothing beats the feeling you get when you go faster in the exact same machinery.
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