Tune thoughts
06-11-2024, 10:53 PM
#16
Instructor
Got a tune for about a year ago, it has been a very positive experience, would do it again for sure. I would also guess that most of us only have experience with one tune so no real comparison experience. Unfortunately I have not seen any dyno plots or tune shoot outs where someone has tested them all and compared/contrasted them. Would love to see that is anyone is aware. So in the end I chose a tuner that had a good reputation and the options I wanted. Hope that helps.
06-12-2024, 02:36 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
Got a tune for about a year ago, it has been a very positive experience, would do it again for sure. I would also guess that most of us only have experience with one tune so no real comparison experience. Unfortunately I have not seen any dyno plots or tune shoot outs where someone has tested them all and compared/contrasted them. Would love to see that is anyone is aware. So in the end I chose a tuner that had a good reputation and the options I wanted. Hope that helps.
Comparing dyno plots across different tuners is a bit of a crapshoot... Every individual dyno seems to have it's own personality and that makes the numbers difficult or impossible to assign an absolute value and truth to. There are trends, but dyno battles between tuners tend to just be pissing matches that don't settle any arguments, they only create more of them. I think the best tuners likely know this, so don't really want to stick their necks out too far and simply engage in or start dyno wars.
The best way I've found to approach tuning (when not doing the work myself - which I did back in my Honda days) is to work with a good tuner, with a track record, who has a good method of baselining your car on their equipment and then having them dial in the car on the same equipment and ideally in the exact same conditions. Once a good candidate tune is reached it's time to do road testing and confirm that what was seen on the dyno actually makes the car perform better and in the desired way, if not, then go back in and tune some more to get the behavior were you want it. Don't get too hung up on numbers, as you are likely to eventually find someone posting something with higher numbers and that will just disappoint you, even if those higher numbers don't actually mean that car was actually making more power, or more drivable.
About the closest I think you can get to a direct comparison with numbers is during a dyno day where multiple, very similar cars, show up with tunes from different sources, and seeing what each car does on a given day. There would likely be way too many remaining variables to make this comparison effective, but that might be the most likely, best way, to do it. Alternatively... a drag strip is a good place to validate horsepower numbers... It's pretty hard to argue against what a good trap speed equates to in actual power delivered.
As I sit here writing this my car is going to be going through another tuning exercise, with one of the best, over the next little while and I'm very keen to see how she comes out of it.
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06-12-2024, 11:35 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
The comments below are not directed towards you, but thought they might dovetail nicely with what you said.
Comparing dyno plots across different tuners is a bit of a crapshoot... Every individual dyno seems to have it's own personality and that makes the numbers difficult or impossible to assign an absolute value and truth to. There are trends, but dyno battles between tuners tend to just be pissing matches that don't settle any arguments, they only create more of them. I think the best tuners likely know this, so don't really want to stick their necks out too far and simply engage in or start dyno wars.
The best way I've found to approach tuning (when not doing the work myself - which I did back in my Honda days) is to work with a good tuner, with a track record, who has a good method of baselining your car on their equipment and then having them dial in the car on the same equipment and ideally in the exact same conditions. Once a good candidate tune is reached it's time to do road testing and confirm that what was seen on the dyno actually makes the car perform better and in the desired way, if not, then go back in and tune some more to get the behavior were you want it. Don't get too hung up on numbers, as you are likely to eventually find someone posting something with higher numbers and that will just disappoint you, even if those higher numbers don't actually mean that car was actually making more power, or more drivable.
About the closest I think you can get to a direct comparison with numbers is during a dyno day where multiple, very similar cars, show up with tunes from different sources, and seeing what each car does on a given day. There would likely be way too many remaining variables to make this comparison effective, but that might be the most likely, best way, to do it. Alternatively... a drag strip is a good place to validate horsepower numbers... It's pretty hard to argue against what a good trap speed equates to in actual power delivered.
As I sit here writing this my car is going to be going through another tuning exercise, with one of the best, over the next little while and I'm very keen to see how she comes out of it.
Comparing dyno plots across different tuners is a bit of a crapshoot... Every individual dyno seems to have it's own personality and that makes the numbers difficult or impossible to assign an absolute value and truth to. There are trends, but dyno battles between tuners tend to just be pissing matches that don't settle any arguments, they only create more of them. I think the best tuners likely know this, so don't really want to stick their necks out too far and simply engage in or start dyno wars.
The best way I've found to approach tuning (when not doing the work myself - which I did back in my Honda days) is to work with a good tuner, with a track record, who has a good method of baselining your car on their equipment and then having them dial in the car on the same equipment and ideally in the exact same conditions. Once a good candidate tune is reached it's time to do road testing and confirm that what was seen on the dyno actually makes the car perform better and in the desired way, if not, then go back in and tune some more to get the behavior were you want it. Don't get too hung up on numbers, as you are likely to eventually find someone posting something with higher numbers and that will just disappoint you, even if those higher numbers don't actually mean that car was actually making more power, or more drivable.
About the closest I think you can get to a direct comparison with numbers is during a dyno day where multiple, very similar cars, show up with tunes from different sources, and seeing what each car does on a given day. There would likely be way too many remaining variables to make this comparison effective, but that might be the most likely, best way, to do it. Alternatively... a drag strip is a good place to validate horsepower numbers... It's pretty hard to argue against what a good trap speed equates to in actual power delivered.
As I sit here writing this my car is going to be going through another tuning exercise, with one of the best, over the next little while and I'm very keen to see how she comes out of it.
06-12-2024, 11:41 AM
#19
Since this thread is "tune thoughts"....
Any mod you do puts you at risk for your warranty specific to whatever item was replaced or impacted by that part. In this case if you put a tune on and then you blow your engine 6 weeks later hard to expect the manufacturer to cover the engine replacement.... Now if you put the tune on and the rear diff goes out, much harder to make the connection and not replace the rear diff under warranty. So you're always kind of taking a calculated risk by putting a tune or other mods on.
I think it's been mentioned above but doing a tune on an NA car is going to have a lot less upside than doing a tune to a turbo car. Spending $1,500 and getting 100 horsepower added to a turbo car, makes the risk possibly a little more palatable. In comparison spending $1,500 on an NA car and only getting 15 horsepower added, not sure if the risk is worth it. I'm going to notice the 100 horsepower but I'm not going to notice the 15 horsepower. So personally I would skip the NA tune.
Any mod you do puts you at risk for your warranty specific to whatever item was replaced or impacted by that part. In this case if you put a tune on and then you blow your engine 6 weeks later hard to expect the manufacturer to cover the engine replacement.... Now if you put the tune on and the rear diff goes out, much harder to make the connection and not replace the rear diff under warranty. So you're always kind of taking a calculated risk by putting a tune or other mods on.
I think it's been mentioned above but doing a tune on an NA car is going to have a lot less upside than doing a tune to a turbo car. Spending $1,500 and getting 100 horsepower added to a turbo car, makes the risk possibly a little more palatable. In comparison spending $1,500 on an NA car and only getting 15 horsepower added, not sure if the risk is worth it. I'm going to notice the 100 horsepower but I'm not going to notice the 15 horsepower. So personally I would skip the NA tune.
Last edited by Ksdaoski; 06-12-2024 at 11:42 AM.
06-12-2024, 11:44 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
It is pretty fascinating that I have yet to see a 1/4 mile time posted for a tuned GTS or GT4, it would pretty much end all of this debate about whether or not the dynos are accurate
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911T4ME (06-13-2024)
06-12-2024, 11:56 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
Since this thread is "tune thoughts"....
Any mod you do puts you at risk for your warranty specific to whatever item was replaced or impacted by that part. In this case if you put a tune on and then you blow your engine 6 weeks later hard to expect the manufacturer to cover the engine replacement.... Now if you put the tune on and the rear diff goes out, much harder to make the connection and not replace the rear diff under warranty. So you're always kind of taking a calculated risk by putting a tune or other mods on.
I think it's been mentioned above but doing a tune on an NA car is going to have a lot less upside than doing a tune to a turbo car. Spending $1,500 and getting 100 horsepower added to a turbo car, makes the risk possibly a little more palatable. In comparison spending $1,500 on an NA car and only getting 15 horsepower added, not sure if the risk is worth it. I'm going to notice the 100 horsepower but I'm not going to notice the 15 horsepower. So personally I would skip the NA tune.
Any mod you do puts you at risk for your warranty specific to whatever item was replaced or impacted by that part. In this case if you put a tune on and then you blow your engine 6 weeks later hard to expect the manufacturer to cover the engine replacement.... Now if you put the tune on and the rear diff goes out, much harder to make the connection and not replace the rear diff under warranty. So you're always kind of taking a calculated risk by putting a tune or other mods on.
I think it's been mentioned above but doing a tune on an NA car is going to have a lot less upside than doing a tune to a turbo car. Spending $1,500 and getting 100 horsepower added to a turbo car, makes the risk possibly a little more palatable. In comparison spending $1,500 on an NA car and only getting 15 horsepower added, not sure if the risk is worth it. I'm going to notice the 100 horsepower but I'm not going to notice the 15 horsepower. So personally I would skip the NA tune.
Last edited by bantam1; 06-12-2024 at 12:00 PM.
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Clark_Kent (06-12-2024)
06-12-2024, 11:57 AM
#22
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Better to spend the money on race gas (100 octane).
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85Gold (06-12-2024)
06-12-2024, 11:59 AM
#23
I think that in most circumstances, I would agree with this logic, but in this case Porsche has apparently left quite a bit of power on the table for the 4.0, unless you think that Cobb, APR, and M-engineering have conspired together to commit fraud and all claim roughly the same power gains.
Typically people that are selling product are giving you a reason why to buy it...
Yes Porsche left 20 horsepower on the table versus the GT4. Allegedly. I don't know if I actually buy that. But yeah extremely possible. Still go back to the NA tune versus a Turbo tune... Much smaller gain for the same price.
And I would love to see somebody independently show a 40 wheel horsepower gain...
I just looked at Cobb they're showing a 30 horsepower gain which is not wheel horsepower, it's at the block
Edit it looks like I was looking at the spider..... So they are showing a 50 horsepower gain at the block
Last edited by Ksdaoski; 06-12-2024 at 12:03 PM.
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Larry Cable (06-19-2024)
06-12-2024, 12:00 PM
#24
The comments below are not directed towards you, but thought they might dovetail nicely with what you said.
Comparing dyno plots across different tuners is a bit of a crapshoot... Every individual dyno seems to have it's own personality and that makes the numbers difficult or impossible to assign an absolute value and truth to. There are trends, but dyno battles between tuners tend to just be pissing matches that don't settle any arguments, they only create more of them. I think the best tuners likely know this, so don't really want to stick their necks out too far and simply engage in or start dyno wars.
The best way I've found to approach tuning (when not doing the work myself - which I did back in my Honda days) is to work with a good tuner, with a track record, who has a good method of baselining your car on their equipment and then having them dial in the car on the same equipment and ideally in the exact same conditions. Once a good candidate tune is reached it's time to do road testing and confirm that what was seen on the dyno actually makes the car perform better and in the desired way, if not, then go back in and tune some more to get the behavior were you want it. Don't get too hung up on numbers, as you are likely to eventually find someone posting something with higher numbers and that will just disappoint you, even if those higher numbers don't actually mean that car was actually making more power, or more drivable.
About the closest I think you can get to a direct comparison with numbers is during a dyno day where multiple, very similar cars, show up with tunes from different sources, and seeing what each car does on a given day. There would likely be way too many remaining variables to make this comparison effective, but that might be the most likely, best way, to do it. Alternatively... a drag strip is a good place to validate horsepower numbers... It's pretty hard to argue against what a good trap speed equates to in actual power delivered.
As I sit here writing this my car is going to be going through another tuning exercise, with one of the best, over the next little while and I'm very keen to see how she comes out of it.
Comparing dyno plots across different tuners is a bit of a crapshoot... Every individual dyno seems to have it's own personality and that makes the numbers difficult or impossible to assign an absolute value and truth to. There are trends, but dyno battles between tuners tend to just be pissing matches that don't settle any arguments, they only create more of them. I think the best tuners likely know this, so don't really want to stick their necks out too far and simply engage in or start dyno wars.
The best way I've found to approach tuning (when not doing the work myself - which I did back in my Honda days) is to work with a good tuner, with a track record, who has a good method of baselining your car on their equipment and then having them dial in the car on the same equipment and ideally in the exact same conditions. Once a good candidate tune is reached it's time to do road testing and confirm that what was seen on the dyno actually makes the car perform better and in the desired way, if not, then go back in and tune some more to get the behavior were you want it. Don't get too hung up on numbers, as you are likely to eventually find someone posting something with higher numbers and that will just disappoint you, even if those higher numbers don't actually mean that car was actually making more power, or more drivable.
About the closest I think you can get to a direct comparison with numbers is during a dyno day where multiple, very similar cars, show up with tunes from different sources, and seeing what each car does on a given day. There would likely be way too many remaining variables to make this comparison effective, but that might be the most likely, best way, to do it. Alternatively... a drag strip is a good place to validate horsepower numbers... It's pretty hard to argue against what a good trap speed equates to in actual power delivered.
As I sit here writing this my car is going to be going through another tuning exercise, with one of the best, over the next little while and I'm very keen to see how she comes out of it.
Especially so with an NA motor.
A custom dyno tune is always best.
I think off-the-shelf tunes for turbo vehicles work well because it's much easier to extract additional power from a turbo vehicle.
Regarding warranty. A tune could void the powertrain warranty - it's not a complete void of any and all systems. Some dealerships will be d*cks though - and some will be much more tuner friendly. My Audi was actually tuned BY my local audi dealership! LOL - and they didn't flag it as tuned... so it really depends on where you bring it in for service.
I'm reluctant to tune this particular car just yet because it's brand new, it's a very expensive vehicle, I don't feel like it's under powered, it's an NA motor and I don't think the gains would be huge...
06-12-2024, 12:17 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Be a little bombastic why don't you...
Typically people that are selling product are giving you a reason why to buy it...
Yes Porsche left 20 horsepower on the table versus the GT4. Allegedly. I don't know if I actually buy that. But yeah extremely possible. Still go back to the NA tune versus a Turbo tune... Much smaller gain for the same price.
And I would love to see somebody independently show a 40 wheel horsepower gain...
I just looked at Cobb they're showing a 30 horsepower gain which is not wheel horsepower, it's at the block
Edit it looks like I was looking at the spider..... So they are showing a 50 horsepower gain at the block
Typically people that are selling product are giving you a reason why to buy it...
Yes Porsche left 20 horsepower on the table versus the GT4. Allegedly. I don't know if I actually buy that. But yeah extremely possible. Still go back to the NA tune versus a Turbo tune... Much smaller gain for the same price.
And I would love to see somebody independently show a 40 wheel horsepower gain...
I just looked at Cobb they're showing a 30 horsepower gain which is not wheel horsepower, it's at the block
Edit it looks like I was looking at the spider..... So they are showing a 50 horsepower gain at the block
This is the data (whp) that I have found for cobb’s 93 octane tune. ~340whp to ~400whp
Last edited by bantam1; 06-12-2024 at 12:18 PM.
06-12-2024, 12:20 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
It's not just your engine that won't be covered. Any mechanical failure on any part that can even remotely be linked to increased stress on the part from more power/torque/heat, etc. will not be covered. The tune really needs to be worth it. On a turbo car, the bang for the buck may be justifiable, but for the actual performance gain (not just a small power bump on a dyno) on a car with an already highly tuned NA motor, I wouldn't do it. Just my opinion, of course.
06-12-2024, 12:37 PM
#27
...
06-12-2024, 01:12 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Here are my thoughts, and they are just my own on why I felt a tune was worthwhile in my situation:
- Adding a tune to an NA engine as mentioned above doesn't typically increase output more than 10-15%, the the amount of increased stress on the relevant components is rather small.
- Porsche has to contend with lots of regulations when tuning the engine, as well as slotting the overall cars performance nicely within their family of products (simply look at how they artificially limited the GTS engine vs the GT4)
- I already added the Dundon Headers and OAPs and pretty much rolled the dice on what Porsche would say if the engine failed in some particular way that they could argue was caused by those components.
- I already have plenty of first hand experience in tuning NA engines and understand the benefits to the overall engine if there is a good tune running on the engine. Consider these two examples:
1. Porsche optimized the timing tables and overall tune on this engine for 93oct fuel. I was able to see clearly through data-logs that the knock feedback scheme that they use to prevent engine damage when using lower octane fuel is frequently active and pulling timing from the engine. This happens A LOT with 91 octane fuel and sadly is all I can practically get here in CA. With a 91 octane optimized tuning I can reduce the reliance on the knock feedback scheme and ultimately reduce stress on the engine (win)
2. When changing parts there will always be some impact on the fueling requirements that require the closed loop O2 system to keep regulating the fuel delivery, if you can re-adjust the tables to have the open-loop fueling requirements in line with what the engine wants then you have less reliance on this closed loop scheme to keep the mixture correct. This will result in a more consistent, cleaner, and more efficient combustion. (win)
A good tune can actually help improve reliability from the engine if done well, particularly once you start changing parts... even a simple muffler modification will have some non-zero impact. Of course you do open up the risk that if something does fail (even not related to the tune itself) that Porsche will not honour your warranty, but if the tune is done right, the fact will likely be that the failure would have occurred anyway. Ultimately you can enjoy this hobby anyway you wish and there are so many great ways to do so
- Adding a tune to an NA engine as mentioned above doesn't typically increase output more than 10-15%, the the amount of increased stress on the relevant components is rather small.
- Porsche has to contend with lots of regulations when tuning the engine, as well as slotting the overall cars performance nicely within their family of products (simply look at how they artificially limited the GTS engine vs the GT4)
- I already added the Dundon Headers and OAPs and pretty much rolled the dice on what Porsche would say if the engine failed in some particular way that they could argue was caused by those components.
- I already have plenty of first hand experience in tuning NA engines and understand the benefits to the overall engine if there is a good tune running on the engine. Consider these two examples:
1. Porsche optimized the timing tables and overall tune on this engine for 93oct fuel. I was able to see clearly through data-logs that the knock feedback scheme that they use to prevent engine damage when using lower octane fuel is frequently active and pulling timing from the engine. This happens A LOT with 91 octane fuel and sadly is all I can practically get here in CA. With a 91 octane optimized tuning I can reduce the reliance on the knock feedback scheme and ultimately reduce stress on the engine (win)
2. When changing parts there will always be some impact on the fueling requirements that require the closed loop O2 system to keep regulating the fuel delivery, if you can re-adjust the tables to have the open-loop fueling requirements in line with what the engine wants then you have less reliance on this closed loop scheme to keep the mixture correct. This will result in a more consistent, cleaner, and more efficient combustion. (win)
A good tune can actually help improve reliability from the engine if done well, particularly once you start changing parts... even a simple muffler modification will have some non-zero impact. Of course you do open up the risk that if something does fail (even not related to the tune itself) that Porsche will not honour your warranty, but if the tune is done right, the fact will likely be that the failure would have occurred anyway. Ultimately you can enjoy this hobby anyway you wish and there are so many great ways to do so
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06-12-2024, 01:25 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Simple answers... any tune is detectable, no tuner will warranty a guaranteed removal without a trace. Almost all auto manufactures have backdoor data-logging that will show the parameters were tampered with due to the increased outputs over stock values. Just go full Header (200 Cell Cats) back exhaust if you want the same gains as someone running a tune on a stock 4.0. There's still a risk if you blow an engine, but I feel its a lot less than if you add a tune. Risk > Reward... juice aint worth the squeeze, and definitely not at the price points some of these companies are asking. I plan for my GT4 to be a keeper back road, and track dedicated vehicle, and the platform has not been out long enough to know how well the longevity of the engine will be on properly driven examples.
I'd be singing a slightly different TUNE if the price points where <$$$ vs >$$$$.
I'd be singing a slightly different TUNE if the price points where <$$$ vs >$$$$.
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Larry Cable (06-19-2024)