Tracking the GT4RS for the first time
12-21-2023, 02:16 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
So last Saturday (Dec 9th), I took my GT4RS out to pop it's track cherry at my favorite local track (Buttonwillow) with the car being completely stock. I drove up in the morning with a buddy to the track and got there before the track opened at 8am. The weather was on the chilly side with the temperature on 8am when I went onto the track was 38 degrees so I started out with tires at 28psi front and 30psi rear on my Cup2s. I took it easy the first session to get the tires warmed up and to brush off the dust as I haven't been the track since the Spring. I cranked the heater up as windows had to be down and the tires only got up to 30psi front and 32psi rear so I didn't bleed any air out. By the 3rd and 4th sessions (10am and 11am), the temperature was already in the mid 50s and I was getting more and more comfortable being on track and with the dynamics of the car. I've tracked a 981 and 718 GT4 extensively so I'm very comfortable with the Cayman mid-engine platform on track. Temperature got up to about 60 and I ended up doing 8 sessions and leaving after the 3pm session as my neck and shoulders were getting sore since I didn't have a 6pt harness. I used about a 1/4 of a tank per session and found that the tires liked being at 30-32psi for best traction.
Now my review of the car. OMG, I knew why I had a BIG WANT of this car. Between the intoxicating sound from 5k to 9k RPM (even with ear plugs), less body roll with the stiffer springs, the fast and pronounced PDK shifts with PDK-Sport on, and more aero than the 981/718 GT4 with wing risers the car was a blast to drive on track. The power once you got above 5k RPM was when the extra power started to kick in above what I got with the 981/714 GT4 cars. The car has so much power that even the tires weren't able to lock up when I did a launch control pull from a stop going onto the tap in the hot pit. The extra aero was confidence inspiring in the fast corners and in the fast transition turns. One negative is that the car was a bit more bumpy compared to my 981/714 GT4 (with stiffer Swift springs) so I had the traction/nannies kicking in at a few bumpy spots on the track so it feels like the OEM dampers aren't dialed in for the stiffer springs. I also did get a bit of tail waggling in the heavy braking zones but I'm sure that will be corrected once I do a proper alignment and ride height adjustment.
Overall, I couldn't be any happier with the car and I'm sure it will be that much better once I put the proper mods onto the car. Besides the alignment and ride height, I plan on putting in my BBI roolbar & 6pt harness, monoball suspension pieces, higher wing uprights and front canards, ST rotors with Pagid pads, SS brake lines and better brake fluid, and custom long tube headers and side pipes with 200 cell cats. I've attached a few on track pictures below.
Now my review of the car. OMG, I knew why I had a BIG WANT of this car. Between the intoxicating sound from 5k to 9k RPM (even with ear plugs), less body roll with the stiffer springs, the fast and pronounced PDK shifts with PDK-Sport on, and more aero than the 981/718 GT4 with wing risers the car was a blast to drive on track. The power once you got above 5k RPM was when the extra power started to kick in above what I got with the 981/714 GT4 cars. The car has so much power that even the tires weren't able to lock up when I did a launch control pull from a stop going onto the tap in the hot pit. The extra aero was confidence inspiring in the fast corners and in the fast transition turns. One negative is that the car was a bit more bumpy compared to my 981/714 GT4 (with stiffer Swift springs) so I had the traction/nannies kicking in at a few bumpy spots on the track so it feels like the OEM dampers aren't dialed in for the stiffer springs. I also did get a bit of tail waggling in the heavy braking zones but I'm sure that will be corrected once I do a proper alignment and ride height adjustment.
Overall, I couldn't be any happier with the car and I'm sure it will be that much better once I put the proper mods onto the car. Besides the alignment and ride height, I plan on putting in my BBI roolbar & 6pt harness, monoball suspension pieces, higher wing uprights and front canards, ST rotors with Pagid pads, SS brake lines and better brake fluid, and custom long tube headers and side pipes with 200 cell cats. I've attached a few on track pictures below.
About the tail wiggle part. Don't dial it out, that's the inherit trait of a mid engine car, it LIKES, WANTS to rotate. Very unlike the rear engined 911s where they are super stable and need some coaxing in order to turn. Very different driving style between the 2.
In heavy braking, the rear is mostly unloaded, unlike in a 911 where a lot of the weight still remains. With a light rear and less traction, and the centre of mass in the middle of the car, slight movement of the front wheels will want to swing the rear one way or another, doesn't take much, while in the 911 it takes more force to move all that mass in the rear.
It requires skills and reflexes to control that rear and that's where the satisfaction of driving a mid engine car fast comes from. The unstable platform is why mid engine cars are so agile and nimble around corners. Learn to control and predict how the tail is going to react and use it as your advantage to rotate the car for corners. Don't use what makes you fast in a 911, it's a different game with the Cayman. For example, traditional 911 technique is to trail brake the car all the way to apex then jump on the throttle, in the Cayman you can start the braking slightly early and don't need to trail as deep, the braking event is done before apex as the car will keep rotating naturally and finish off what you started, the throttle can be massaged in before the apex.
One extreme case of such is Verstappen's RB19. No one else on the grid can control that super light rear except him, and that's what make him so fast.
The following 5 users liked this post by Whoopsy:
DFW01TT (12-21-2023),
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usctrojanGT3 (12-21-2023)
12-21-2023, 02:48 PM
#32
Car looking fantastic!!
About the tail wiggle part. Don't dial it out, that's the inherit trait of a mid engine car, it LIKES, WANTS to rotate. Very unlike the rear engined 911s where they are super stable and need some coaxing in order to turn. Very different driving style between the 2.
In heavy braking, the rear is mostly unloaded, unlike in a 911 where a lot of the weight still remains. With a light rear and less traction, and the centre of mass in the middle of the car, slight movement of the front wheels will want to swing the rear one way or another, doesn't take much, while in the 911 it takes more force to move all that mass in the rear.
It requires skills and reflexes to control that rear and that's where the satisfaction of driving a mid engine car fast comes from. The unstable platform is why mid engine cars are so agile and nimble around corners. Learn to control and predict how the tail is going to react and use it as your advantage to rotate the car for corners. Don't use what makes you fast in a 911, it's a different game with the Cayman. For example, traditional 911 technique is to trail brake the car all the way to apex then jump on the throttle, in the Cayman you can start the braking slightly early and don't need to trail as deep, the braking event is done before apex as the car will keep rotating naturally and finish off what you started, the throttle can be massaged in before the apex.
One extreme case of such is Verstappen's RB19. No one else on the grid can control that super light rear except him, and that's what make him so fast.
About the tail wiggle part. Don't dial it out, that's the inherit trait of a mid engine car, it LIKES, WANTS to rotate. Very unlike the rear engined 911s where they are super stable and need some coaxing in order to turn. Very different driving style between the 2.
In heavy braking, the rear is mostly unloaded, unlike in a 911 where a lot of the weight still remains. With a light rear and less traction, and the centre of mass in the middle of the car, slight movement of the front wheels will want to swing the rear one way or another, doesn't take much, while in the 911 it takes more force to move all that mass in the rear.
It requires skills and reflexes to control that rear and that's where the satisfaction of driving a mid engine car fast comes from. The unstable platform is why mid engine cars are so agile and nimble around corners. Learn to control and predict how the tail is going to react and use it as your advantage to rotate the car for corners. Don't use what makes you fast in a 911, it's a different game with the Cayman. For example, traditional 911 technique is to trail brake the car all the way to apex then jump on the throttle, in the Cayman you can start the braking slightly early and don't need to trail as deep, the braking event is done before apex as the car will keep rotating naturally and finish off what you started, the throttle can be massaged in before the apex.
One extreme case of such is Verstappen's RB19. No one else on the grid can control that super light rear except him, and that's what make him so fast.
The rear wiggle he mentions is more directly related at the change in toe based in suspension extension/compression, a trait of strut type suspensions.
While I do agree about the mid engine cars quick direction changes and how different it feels from 911s (and you have to drive them differently)...that wiggle on the high speed braking zones is not desirable and can be dial-out (most of it) with a simple alignment without affecting the mid-engine cars quick direction change and agility.
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12-21-2023, 05:05 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
The rear wiggle he mentions is more directly related at the change in toe based in suspension extension/compression, a trait of strut type suspensions.
While I do agree about the mid engine cars quick direction changes and how different it feels from 911s (and you have to drive them differently)...that wiggle on the high speed braking zones is not desirable and can be dial-out (most of it) with a simple alignment without affecting the mid-engine cars quick direction change and agility.
While I do agree about the mid engine cars quick direction changes and how different it feels from 911s (and you have to drive them differently)...that wiggle on the high speed braking zones is not desirable and can be dial-out (most of it) with a simple alignment without affecting the mid-engine cars quick direction change and agility.
Those same struts didn't affect Jorg Bergmeister when he set the Ring time. He is the benchmark for the car. If one can lap within spiting distance to him, then one can start complaining about the suspension setup. If not, the limitation factor lies elsewhere, definitely not the suspension, but the driver. Skills of the driver to be exact.
Everyone has the same tool, how it is used is what differentiate. You can have exactly the same kitchen as Gordon Ramsey, but are you gonna cook the same meal as good as him? Or you gonna say oh this oven sucks or that knife is bad and that's why I am not as good.
Improving skills will also be better than 'tuning up' cars. The skillset acquired can be transferred elsewhere, but the tune stays with that particular car.
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12-21-2023, 05:37 PM
#34
Some of you love to keep harping on the 'strut' suspension of the 4RS, trying to highlight that as the limitation factor for your 'performance'. Well that's how the platform goes and the 4RS is the best car for that platform period.
Those same struts didn't affect Jorg Bergmeister when he set the Ring time. He is the benchmark for the car. If one can lap within spiting distance to him, then one can start complaining about the suspension setup. If not, the limitation factor lies elsewhere, definitely not the suspension, but the driver. Skills of the driver to be exact.
Everyone has the same tool, how it is used is what differentiate. You can have exactly the same kitchen as Gordon Ramsey, but are you gonna cook the same meal as good as him? Or you gonna say oh this oven sucks or that knife is bad and that's why I am not as good.
Improving skills will also be better than 'tuning up' cars. The skillset acquired can be transferred elsewhere, but the tune stays with that particular car.
Those same struts didn't affect Jorg Bergmeister when he set the Ring time. He is the benchmark for the car. If one can lap within spiting distance to him, then one can start complaining about the suspension setup. If not, the limitation factor lies elsewhere, definitely not the suspension, but the driver. Skills of the driver to be exact.
Everyone has the same tool, how it is used is what differentiate. You can have exactly the same kitchen as Gordon Ramsey, but are you gonna cook the same meal as good as him? Or you gonna say oh this oven sucks or that knife is bad and that's why I am not as good.
Improving skills will also be better than 'tuning up' cars. The skillset acquired can be transferred elsewhere, but the tune stays with that particular car.
Correlation does not imply causation.
Just because Jorg was able to peddle the car fast doesn’t mean that he might not have preferred a more efficient/effective lap. He drove what he had, and yes he has the skills to manage it but you can see from the lap.. it was a fight. Some might say this the character of the car, or what makes it a drivers car, fine… some others might call it a flaw! Also fine.
So people absolutely CAN complain as the traits are evident at a much lower limit/speed than Jorg was operating at…
Now, Porsche have since released the MR performance kit which tames the said characteristics, and makes the car better and safer to drive even more quickly over the same course. So changes can be made to make the car more suitable for a desired purpose.
As has been stated, the car is ‘track-capable’ but it isn’t a track monster, and the configuration and setup from the factory is aimed at agility/flightiness and fun on smooth mountain passes. If you want the car for other purposes, changes can be made to dial it in or sharpen it for that use case… yes driver capability is a massive part of the story, but lets not pretend like this car is 100% perfect… else by that reasoning no manufacturer has ever built a less than perfect car… because what, we’re ‘just holding it wrong!’?!
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usctrojanGT3 (12-21-2023)
12-21-2023, 06:04 PM
#35
Some of you love to keep harping on the 'strut' suspension of the 4RS, trying to highlight that as the limitation factor for your 'performance'. Well that's how the platform goes and the 4RS is the best car for that platform period.
Those same struts didn't affect Jorg Bergmeister when he set the Ring time. He is the benchmark for the car. If one can lap within spiting distance to him, then one can start complaining about the suspension setup. If not, the limitation factor lies elsewhere, definitely not the suspension, but the driver. Skills of the driver to be exact.
Everyone has the same tool, how it is used is what differentiate. You can have exactly the same kitchen as Gordon Ramsey, but are you gonna cook the same meal as good as him? Or you gonna say oh this oven sucks or that knife is bad and that's why I am not as good.
Improving skills will also be better than 'tuning up' cars. The skillset acquired can be transferred elsewhere, but the tune stays with that particular car.
Those same struts didn't affect Jorg Bergmeister when he set the Ring time. He is the benchmark for the car. If one can lap within spiting distance to him, then one can start complaining about the suspension setup. If not, the limitation factor lies elsewhere, definitely not the suspension, but the driver. Skills of the driver to be exact.
Everyone has the same tool, how it is used is what differentiate. You can have exactly the same kitchen as Gordon Ramsey, but are you gonna cook the same meal as good as him? Or you gonna say oh this oven sucks or that knife is bad and that's why I am not as good.
Improving skills will also be better than 'tuning up' cars. The skillset acquired can be transferred elsewhere, but the tune stays with that particular car.
I just stated some facts about the suspension design and how to cope with them with just a simple alignment, nothing else. I take my 4RS for what it is...if not I can take a GT3 anytime.
I think a car that brakes from +100 MPH without any wiggle is a much better car than one that does it...can we agree on that?
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12-21-2023, 09:19 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Car looking fantastic!!
About the tail wiggle part. Don't dial it out, that's the inherit trait of a mid engine car, it LIKES, WANTS to rotate. Very unlike the rear engined 911s where they are super stable and need some coaxing in order to turn. Very different driving style between the 2.
In heavy braking, the rear is mostly unloaded, unlike in a 911 where a lot of the weight still remains. With a light rear and less traction, and the centre of mass in the middle of the car, slight movement of the front wheels will want to swing the rear one way or another, doesn't take much, while in the 911 it takes more force to move all that mass in the rear.
It requires skills and reflexes to control that rear and that's where the satisfaction of driving a mid engine car fast comes from. The unstable platform is why mid engine cars are so agile and nimble around corners. Learn to control and predict how the tail is going to react and use it as your advantage to rotate the car for corners. Don't use what makes you fast in a 911, it's a different game with the Cayman. For example, traditional 911 technique is to trail brake the car all the way to apex then jump on the throttle, in the Cayman you can start the braking slightly early and don't need to trail as deep, the braking event is done before apex as the car will keep rotating naturally and finish off what you started, the throttle can be massaged in before the apex.
One extreme case of such is Verstappen's RB19. No one else on the grid can control that super light rear except him, and that's what make him so fast.
About the tail wiggle part. Don't dial it out, that's the inherit trait of a mid engine car, it LIKES, WANTS to rotate. Very unlike the rear engined 911s where they are super stable and need some coaxing in order to turn. Very different driving style between the 2.
In heavy braking, the rear is mostly unloaded, unlike in a 911 where a lot of the weight still remains. With a light rear and less traction, and the centre of mass in the middle of the car, slight movement of the front wheels will want to swing the rear one way or another, doesn't take much, while in the 911 it takes more force to move all that mass in the rear.
It requires skills and reflexes to control that rear and that's where the satisfaction of driving a mid engine car fast comes from. The unstable platform is why mid engine cars are so agile and nimble around corners. Learn to control and predict how the tail is going to react and use it as your advantage to rotate the car for corners. Don't use what makes you fast in a 911, it's a different game with the Cayman. For example, traditional 911 technique is to trail brake the car all the way to apex then jump on the throttle, in the Cayman you can start the braking slightly early and don't need to trail as deep, the braking event is done before apex as the car will keep rotating naturally and finish off what you started, the throttle can be massaged in before the apex.
One extreme case of such is Verstappen's RB19. No one else on the grid can control that super light rear except him, and that's what make him so fast.
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prof.nano (12-22-2023)
12-22-2023, 04:44 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
I'm more used to tracking the Cayman platform in the past 5-6 years with the 918 & 718 GT4. I like a little more stability in the braking but I do agree I had to re-learn how to drive the car versus the GT3/RS cars. The Cayman doesn't like deep apex trail braking but loves mid corner throttle steering where you can control the direction of the car with the use of the gas pedal. I have found Caymans to be less "scary" near the limit than I did GT3/RSs so I tend to go 9/10ths+ instead of 7-8ths in the GT3/RS cars.
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usctrojanGT3 (12-23-2023)
12-24-2023, 11:02 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Congrats on the 4RS Martin. So, for mixed street/track, do you feel the 4RS is worth the premium over the GT4?
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usctrojanGT3 (12-25-2023)
12-25-2023, 02:01 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
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Drifting (12-25-2023)