Cayman GTS/GT4 vs. 911 GTS
10-10-2021, 12:22 PM
#1
Cayman GTS/GT4 vs. 911 GTS
I currently own a 2018 BMW M2, and I love the car for everything it is. That said, I'm always looking to the next best thing and moving to a Porsche is the next step for me. I do not track my M2 (although I may someday) and it is just a fun weekend car for canyon runs etc. in the Rocky Mountains. I have been seriously interested in the 4.0 GT4 for over a year now, but I just moved to Denver, Colorado from Portland, Oregon and never realized the effect of elevation on naturally aspirated cars (loss of 3% horsepower for every 1000 ft. of elevation). This means at higher elevations in the Rockies, such as 10,000 ft, it could be up to a 30-35% horsepower loss. I test drove a 2021 GT4 with PDK and loved it, but many have pointed out the GT4 can never be fully appreciated unless occasionally taken to the track. Many tell me I'd be better off with the 4.0 GTS, and I understand that argument. But now I'm thinking I should go in the direction of the 911 GTS because it is turbocharged and will have far less power loss at high elevations. Plus, it is a better upgrade from the M2 because I won't lose the two rear seats and my ultimate endgame has always been a 911 anyways.
I would appreciate some thoughts to help make a decision. One big question is: how much does the high elevation power loss on the GT4/GTS really matter? The chassis is sublime and I'm guessing it is more fun than a 911 being so much lighter. But I've never driven a 911 either. The new 911 GTS seems to have everything I'm looking for in a high performance touring car.
I would appreciate some thoughts to help make a decision. One big question is: how much does the high elevation power loss on the GT4/GTS really matter? The chassis is sublime and I'm guessing it is more fun than a 911 being so much lighter. But I've never driven a 911 either. The new 911 GTS seems to have everything I'm looking for in a high performance touring car.
Last edited by jas1598; 10-10-2021 at 12:32 PM.
10-10-2021, 03:28 PM
#2
If you want the 911, get the 911. The 4.0 gts can easily handle a 30% power loss for public street driving. It has more power than I ….. should ever be using. You’d need to rev it out more, which actually sounds terrific to me. But if you like the low down torque and don’t want to rev it to 4000 rpms just to hustle, then a turbocharged engine would be more your style. The NA engines require a slightly different touch than the M2. Some folks like that and some don’t.
10-10-2021, 04:25 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
FWIW, I recently had an Altima rental when we went out to the Rockies, Estes State park and surrounding areas that were 10k. I realize they are totally different, but even that I would consider gutless at sea level, and it did ok up in the hills and such. I agree that the power loss would be more than I'd care for, but even 20% would be closer to where the base Caymans would be, while still having dazzling handling.
I'd agree that the 911 performance with the turbo and Forced Induction at the higher elevations is more appealing, but it really is still a GT car. They are using a lot more aluminum in the 992, and working to keep the weight down, but it will still be quite a bit bigger than the 718, and won't be as balanced as the 718 in the mountains. Definitely a tough scenario, but I would still side with the 718, with an exhaust and/or manifolds, if you choose, you can easily gain some of that power back so the loss is a lot less painful. Don't forget that Porsche cars are already pretty efficient in their powertrain loss, compared to most other mfg (including BMW).
I'd agree that the 911 performance with the turbo and Forced Induction at the higher elevations is more appealing, but it really is still a GT car. They are using a lot more aluminum in the 992, and working to keep the weight down, but it will still be quite a bit bigger than the 718, and won't be as balanced as the 718 in the mountains. Definitely a tough scenario, but I would still side with the 718, with an exhaust and/or manifolds, if you choose, you can easily gain some of that power back so the loss is a lot less painful. Don't forget that Porsche cars are already pretty efficient in their powertrain loss, compared to most other mfg (including BMW).
10-10-2021, 04:47 PM
#4
FWIW, I recently had an Altima rental when we went out to the Rockies, Estes State park and surrounding areas that were 10k. I realize they are totally different, but even that I would consider gutless at sea level, and it did ok up in the hills and such. I agree that the power loss would be more than I'd care for, but even 20% would be closer to where the base Caymans would be, while still having dazzling handling.
I'd agree that the 911 performance with the turbo and Forced Induction at the higher elevations is more appealing, but it really is still a GT car. They are using a lot more aluminum in the 992, and working to keep the weight down, but it will still be quite a bit bigger than the 718, and won't be as balanced as the 718 in the mountains. Definitely a tough scenario, but I would still side with the 718, with an exhaust and/or manifolds, if you choose, you can easily gain some of that power back so the loss is a lot less painful. Don't forget that Porsche cars are already pretty efficient in their powertrain loss, compared to most other mfg (including BMW).
I'd agree that the 911 performance with the turbo and Forced Induction at the higher elevations is more appealing, but it really is still a GT car. They are using a lot more aluminum in the 992, and working to keep the weight down, but it will still be quite a bit bigger than the 718, and won't be as balanced as the 718 in the mountains. Definitely a tough scenario, but I would still side with the 718, with an exhaust and/or manifolds, if you choose, you can easily gain some of that power back so the loss is a lot less painful. Don't forget that Porsche cars are already pretty efficient in their powertrain loss, compared to most other mfg (including BMW).
To get more technical about the "GT" feel, what that really means is that there will be more rubber bushing mounting points on the 992 GTS, while the GT4 has a lot more direct/ball joint bushing attach points. In addition, the shock damping will be more aggressive on the GT4.
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Alpha Ice (10-10-2021)
10-10-2021, 06:13 PM
#5
I have had the privilege of owning a GT4 (981 and 982) and 991.2 GTS.
Modern 911s have turned into very capable grand touring cars. If you could only have one car that had to do everything the 992 is the way to go. However, if you can have more than one car a GT4 plus anything else would be very hard to beat for enjoyment.
Modern 911s have turned into very capable grand touring cars. If you could only have one car that had to do everything the 992 is the way to go. However, if you can have more than one car a GT4 plus anything else would be very hard to beat for enjoyment.
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flynlo (10-10-2021)
10-10-2021, 06:36 PM
#6
Drifting
I had no interest in a 718 GTS, but I think a GTS is by far the better choice for most people if you eliminate depreciation as a factor. It's the better non-track street machine. It is the right size to enjoy it as a sports car on the street, and tire width, adjustability, and 20hp extra just don't matter on the street.
I can't see loving the 911 more than a 718 as a driver car, but it was a legitimate backup car to me instead of the cayman GTS. Why I had it as a backup car was because if I could not get a GT4 I figured the next step was going with heritage + getting a practical 4 seater family sports car, so the 911 worked for that even though it's a massive boat of a car now.
I don't drive at 10000feet, but at 5000 feet I do not notice a difference in passing power with my BMW vs 0 feet. I know there is one, but it's not noticable at all to me. So I do not think that should be your deciding factor on turbo or NA.
I can't see loving the 911 more than a 718 as a driver car, but it was a legitimate backup car to me instead of the cayman GTS. Why I had it as a backup car was because if I could not get a GT4 I figured the next step was going with heritage + getting a practical 4 seater family sports car, so the 911 worked for that even though it's a massive boat of a car now.
I don't drive at 10000feet, but at 5000 feet I do not notice a difference in passing power with my BMW vs 0 feet. I know there is one, but it's not noticable at all to me. So I do not think that should be your deciding factor on turbo or NA.
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StinkyYamaLinky (10-11-2021)
10-10-2021, 06:50 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
sell the M2, get a GT4 and a 911 C2S
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10-11-2021, 10:25 AM
#9
Instructor
So I live in Denver and own a 4L 911 (996 with M96 motor upgraded to 4.0 Nickies done right)…
1: RMR PCA is so far the best part of ownership for me… such a really wonderful group of people. I spent yesterday volunteering on grid with RMR PCA at High Plains Raceway. It was a great time! And we had GT4 4.0’s as well as a 2019 Weissach GT4RS, and a GT4 ClubSport 3.8. All of these naturally aspirated phenominal cars are extremely capable at the high altitude of Denver. My 4.0 996 is also very capable at altitude. A few weeks ago, I did a Squaw Pass run with some local Porsche folks and I hung just behind the Turbos - they couldn’t shake me.
2: for ME, I made the decision to sell my wonderful and essentially completely re-done 996 4.0 and I have an order in for the Boxster GTS 4.0 with MT. I believe it may be one of the last production model (non-GT) ultimate driver’s cars. I am a 95% street/5% track driver. I intend to regularly, if not daily drive my Porsche. I’ve owned a 911 for over 5 years now… a 911 that’s a bit smaller and a more visceral experience than the newer ones. Yet I find I am more comfortable with the handling characteristics of the mid-engine cars and I LOVED the 2014 Cayman S on the track. But YOU need to figure out what you want in a car. The 992 GTS is an absolutely remarkable car, as is the 982 GTS. Finding an allocation on either car for 2022 will be a challenge unless you’re willing to pay ADM.
If you want some more insights, I recommend linking up with RMR-PCA and talking to some owners. I’m sure you’ll find club members locally who can talk about their ownership experience with either of those cars… maybe even someone with experience in BOTH (I think I know someone) who also has experience with BMW’s. I’d be glad to give you contacts in the local club, and be glad to share allocation shopping ideas with you off-line. PM me if interested.
Scott
1: RMR PCA is so far the best part of ownership for me… such a really wonderful group of people. I spent yesterday volunteering on grid with RMR PCA at High Plains Raceway. It was a great time! And we had GT4 4.0’s as well as a 2019 Weissach GT4RS, and a GT4 ClubSport 3.8. All of these naturally aspirated phenominal cars are extremely capable at the high altitude of Denver. My 4.0 996 is also very capable at altitude. A few weeks ago, I did a Squaw Pass run with some local Porsche folks and I hung just behind the Turbos - they couldn’t shake me.
2: for ME, I made the decision to sell my wonderful and essentially completely re-done 996 4.0 and I have an order in for the Boxster GTS 4.0 with MT. I believe it may be one of the last production model (non-GT) ultimate driver’s cars. I am a 95% street/5% track driver. I intend to regularly, if not daily drive my Porsche. I’ve owned a 911 for over 5 years now… a 911 that’s a bit smaller and a more visceral experience than the newer ones. Yet I find I am more comfortable with the handling characteristics of the mid-engine cars and I LOVED the 2014 Cayman S on the track. But YOU need to figure out what you want in a car. The 992 GTS is an absolutely remarkable car, as is the 982 GTS. Finding an allocation on either car for 2022 will be a challenge unless you’re willing to pay ADM.
If you want some more insights, I recommend linking up with RMR-PCA and talking to some owners. I’m sure you’ll find club members locally who can talk about their ownership experience with either of those cars… maybe even someone with experience in BOTH (I think I know someone) who also has experience with BMW’s. I’d be glad to give you contacts in the local club, and be glad to share allocation shopping ideas with you off-line. PM me if interested.
Scott
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Dan Nagy (10-11-2021)
10-11-2021, 10:41 AM
#10
I have had the privilege of owning a GT4 (981 and 982) and 991.2 GTS.
Modern 911s have turned into very capable grand touring cars. If you could only have one car that had to do everything the 992 is the way to go. However, if you can have more than one car a GT4 plus anything else would be very hard to beat for enjoyment.
Modern 911s have turned into very capable grand touring cars. If you could only have one car that had to do everything the 992 is the way to go. However, if you can have more than one car a GT4 plus anything else would be very hard to beat for enjoyment.
10-11-2021, 05:39 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
I currently own a 2018 BMW M2, and I love the car for everything it is. That said, I'm always looking to the next best thing and moving to a Porsche is the next step for me. I do not track my M2 (although I may someday) and it is just a fun weekend car for canyon runs etc. in the Rocky Mountains. I have been seriously interested in the 4.0 GT4 for over a year now, but I just moved to Denver, Colorado from Portland, Oregon and never realized the effect of elevation on naturally aspirated cars (loss of 3% horsepower for every 1000 ft. of elevation). This means at higher elevations in the Rockies, such as 10,000 ft, it could be up to a 30-35% horsepower loss. I test drove a 2021 GT4 with PDK and loved it, but many have pointed out the GT4 can never be fully appreciated unless occasionally taken to the track. Many tell me I'd be better off with the 4.0 GTS, and I understand that argument. But now I'm thinking I should go in the direction of the 911 GTS because it is turbocharged and will have far less power loss at high elevations. Plus, it is a better upgrade from the M2 because I won't lose the two rear seats and my ultimate endgame has always been a 911 anyways.
I would appreciate some thoughts to help make a decision. One big question is: how much does the high elevation power loss on the GT4/GTS really matter? The chassis is sublime and I'm guessing it is more fun than a 911 being so much lighter. But I've never driven a 911 either. The new 911 GTS seems to have everything I'm looking for in a high performance touring car.
I would appreciate some thoughts to help make a decision. One big question is: how much does the high elevation power loss on the GT4/GTS really matter? The chassis is sublime and I'm guessing it is more fun than a 911 being so much lighter. But I've never driven a 911 either. The new 911 GTS seems to have everything I'm looking for in a high performance touring car.
I have been struggling myself between those exact choices - I have deposits on all 3 (I would upgrade my current GTS 4.0 to another one, to get a different spec), so I will have a difficult decision soon.
I absolutely adore the NA engine in the GTS 4.0 and GT4, so I won't likely go 911 GTS. But for your criteria - for the high altitudes and concerns re HP loss, I would say go 911 GTS. If you liked the "raw" and exciting feeling of the GT4 in the Cabin, go for the Lightweight Package in the 911 GTS, it greatly reduces the amount of sound deadening and sounds much more raw like a GT4 inside. From the recent YouTube reviews (especially the RBR one), I have never heard a modern Turbocharged 911 sound that good inside the car! They now offer that package with either the Carbon Buckets or the 18-Ways. If I did get one, I would get it with that package with the 18-Ways.
My two cents, anyway.
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StinkyYamaLinky (10-11-2021)
10-11-2021, 06:15 PM
#12
No way would I pay the cost of a GT4 or GTS 4L to own at altitude. They will lose so much power at 7-10,000 feet, they'll feel anemic. Every time I took my 400HP C2S up to altitude it felt dog slow.
I'd go GTS, though you may have to buy a used 991.2 unless you want to wait a while, as the 992 is rumored to already be in very high demand and allocations are expected to be hard to come by.
I'd go GTS, though you may have to buy a used 991.2 unless you want to wait a while, as the 992 is rumored to already be in very high demand and allocations are expected to be hard to come by.
10-11-2021, 06:18 PM
#13
10-11-2021, 08:25 PM
#14
Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I posted this same thread in the 992 forum and ended up with the same conclusions. For me, with altitude ranging from 5,000-11,000ft, the 911 is the way to go. I'm now leaning more towards the 992 S because I realize I don't really need the extras that come with the GTS. Plus, it will be really difficult to get an allocation.
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StormRune (10-11-2021)
10-11-2021, 08:32 PM
#15
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I posted this same thread in the 992 forum and ended up with the same conclusions. For me, with altitude ranging from 5,000-11,000ft, the 911 is the way to go. I'm now leaning more towards the 992 S because I realize I don't really need the extras that come with the GTS. Plus, it will be really difficult to get an allocation.