PZeros and temperature ... ?
Racer
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 257
Likes: 108
From: Chattanooga, TN
I emailed Michelin asking about this very thing and here is the response they sent:
"Michelin Ultra-High Performance (UHP) Sport Summer tires use tread compounds that are optimized for maximum dry and damp grip in temperate conditions. As the temperature of the compound nears freezing, the grip level of the tire begins to degrade. Michelin does not recommend using UHP Sport Summer tires when tire temperatures drop below 40°F (5°C) or on snow and ice. At tire temperatures below 20°F (-7°C) Michelin UHP Sport Summer tires may develop surface cracks in the upper sidewall and tread area if flexed. Do not use, roll, or drop MICHELIN UHP Sport Summer tires with temperatures below 20°F (-7°C). If the tires have been cooled to 20°F (-7°C) or less, let them warm up in a heated space to at least 40°F (5°C) before being installed or moving a vehicle on which they are installed. Do not apply heat or blow heated air directly on the tires. Always inspect tires before use. Never use a tire with freeze cracks, breaks, or damage to the sidewall or tread."
Take it for what you will.
"Michelin Ultra-High Performance (UHP) Sport Summer tires use tread compounds that are optimized for maximum dry and damp grip in temperate conditions. As the temperature of the compound nears freezing, the grip level of the tire begins to degrade. Michelin does not recommend using UHP Sport Summer tires when tire temperatures drop below 40°F (5°C) or on snow and ice. At tire temperatures below 20°F (-7°C) Michelin UHP Sport Summer tires may develop surface cracks in the upper sidewall and tread area if flexed. Do not use, roll, or drop MICHELIN UHP Sport Summer tires with temperatures below 20°F (-7°C). If the tires have been cooled to 20°F (-7°C) or less, let them warm up in a heated space to at least 40°F (5°C) before being installed or moving a vehicle on which they are installed. Do not apply heat or blow heated air directly on the tires. Always inspect tires before use. Never use a tire with freeze cracks, breaks, or damage to the sidewall or tread."
Take it for what you will.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,898
Likes: 2,832
This makes a lot of sense and is what prompted my reply to OP. I don't think 400 TW tires will crack at 40F. As this info straight from Michelin says, cracking is not a risk until temps are WELL below freezing. I can't imagine that any other 400 TW tire is different in any meaningful way. If you're not pushing the limits of grip, they will get you around perfectly well in temps above freezing on dry roads. Two years as a beginning track driver have taught me what the limits of grip are. None of us approach them on public roads unless you drive like a madman. I think there's plenty of margin for error and grip in 400 TW tires at 35 - 40 degrees. If I used my 718 as a daily, I would get a winter or A/S set. For a twice a month winter run on a clear 35 - 45 degree day, I'm OK on my 400's. I don't take the car out on salted roads or in snow/ice. A winter set would not be a value proposition for me.
Last edited by ldamelio; Dec 21, 2022 at 09:45 AM.
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 17,299
Likes: 2,166
From: Gone. On the Open Road
It is very true that the vast majority of drivers never get near the limits of grip… on dry, summer public roads.
You miss the point though. The point is that very unexpected things happen on public roads. Driving on tires in conditions when they will not have grip anything near their limits is something to be done when necessary not as a matter of course.
Pro
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 538
Likes: 133
From: Southern DE
I guess I wasn't clear on my plans to drive the BGTS in winter months.
I don't need to drive in snow ... I have a Cayenne daily driver, and a F150 4x4 for that.
I just want to be able to drive the car when the roads are clear in winter without ruining the PZeros.
I don't need "winter dedicated" tires for the Boxster, just something I can
use for 3 months. Changing out the tires at Porsche is pretty easy. I've done that
previously with 911s.
I don't need to drive in snow ... I have a Cayenne daily driver, and a F150 4x4 for that.
I just want to be able to drive the car when the roads are clear in winter without ruining the PZeros.
I don't need "winter dedicated" tires for the Boxster, just something I can
use for 3 months. Changing out the tires at Porsche is pretty easy. I've done that
previously with 911s.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,898
Likes: 2,832
When you were on the track how many times did a kid chasing a ball run out in front of you? Or did other drivers, texting at the wheel run a red light on the track? Granny in her ‘88 Impala thinking the green light was a green arrow jumped out in front of you on the track? Accidentally found ice in a shaded spot in a turn on your warm-up lap?
It is very true that the vast majority of drivers never get near the limits of grip… on dry, summer public roads.
You miss the point though. The point is that very unexpected things happen on public roads. Driving on tires in conditions when they will not have grip anything near their limits is something to be done when necessary not as a matter of course.
It is very true that the vast majority of drivers never get near the limits of grip… on dry, summer public roads.
You miss the point though. The point is that very unexpected things happen on public roads. Driving on tires in conditions when they will not have grip anything near their limits is something to be done when necessary not as a matter of course.
You always seem to have a bone to pick with me on the forum and take a harsh tone. I think in temps between 35 and 45, most 400 TW tires can handle the situations you describe. I see many performance cars daily driven on 400s in my region (southeastern PA) all through the winter . Most of the drivers are probably blissfully unaware of the topic we're discussing. I think you're being a bit over the top about the risk of driving 400s between 35 and 45F on DRY roads. At this point, OP has information to make his own decision. I'll agree to disagree and not engage further.
Last edited by ldamelio; Dec 22, 2022 at 03:50 PM.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Nov 2022
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 1,447
From: Philadelphia
You always seem to have a bone to pick with me on the forum and take a harsh tone. I think in temps between 35 and 45, most 400 TW tires can handle the situations you describe. I see many performance cars daily driven on 400s in my region (southeastern PA) all through the winter . Most of the drivers are probably blissfully unaware of the topic we're discussing. I think you're being a bit over the top about the risk of driving 400s between 35 and 45F. At this point, OP has information to make his own decision. I'll agree to disagree and not engage further.
With that said, I hope my delivery stays on schedule for early February 23’ - I will keep on the OEM tires on the car until Oct/Nov. 23’ - toss them in the trash, and wrap with Alpin 4’s for the winter months. Rinse and repeat each year: New summers each season, and Ill probably get 2-3 years out of the Alpin’s. My GT4 = My DD.
To answer your question… can you, yes, to some “DEGREE”, and caution (especially if its not your DD).
Lastly, if you live in an area that brines the roads during the winter seasons, you need to wait for a few heavy rains to drop late winter/early spring before they’re safe for pushing your cars to the limits, as the brine creates a slickness to the roads that’s invisible to the eye.
Last edited by BoxKing; Dec 21, 2022 at 08:23 PM.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 971
Likes: 30
From: CT-Land
I just ordered the Falken Azenis FK460s to run from when ever they come in until probably March.
They should serve me well for that time .. and, run ~$800 delivered from Tire Rack. Having them
delivered to my dealer to install on OEM wheels in OEM size.
I've had a couple 911 Turbos / GTS in AWD on "summer tires" and found that the grip was just OK
on dry pavement at temps approaching 45 F, but I found the vehicle
responded in a surprising way even with AWD. And, the dealership service guy gave me the business
for driving the 911s in those temps with PZeros. Fortunately, I've always had a "winter car / truck" to augment my
drives. But, I'd like to drive the BGTS when ever I can. Expensive vehicle to park for 3 - 4 months IMO.
The Falken's should suit me well.
Thanks for the comments / recommendations.
They should serve me well for that time .. and, run ~$800 delivered from Tire Rack. Having them
delivered to my dealer to install on OEM wheels in OEM size.
I've had a couple 911 Turbos / GTS in AWD on "summer tires" and found that the grip was just OK
on dry pavement at temps approaching 45 F, but I found the vehicle
responded in a surprising way even with AWD. And, the dealership service guy gave me the business
for driving the 911s in those temps with PZeros. Fortunately, I've always had a "winter car / truck" to augment my
drives. But, I'd like to drive the BGTS when ever I can. Expensive vehicle to park for 3 - 4 months IMO.
The Falken's should suit me well.
Thanks for the comments / recommendations.
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Rennlist Member
Joined: Nov 2022
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 1,447
From: Philadelphia
I just ordered the Falken Azenis FK460s to run from when ever they come in until probably March.
They should serve me well for that time .. and, run ~$800 delivered from Tire Rack. Having them
delivered to my dealer to install on OEM wheels in OEM size.
I've had a couple 911 Turbos / GTS in AWD on "summer tires" and found that the grip was just OK
on dry pavement at temps approaching 45 F, but I found the vehicle
responded in a surprising way even with AWD. And, the dealership service guy gave me the business
for driving the 911s in those temps with PZeros. Fortunately, I've always had a "winter car / truck" to augment my
drives. But, I'd like to drive the BGTS when ever I can. Expensive vehicle to park for 3 - 4 months IMO.
The Falken's should suit me well.
Thanks for the comments / recommendations.
They should serve me well for that time .. and, run ~$800 delivered from Tire Rack. Having them
delivered to my dealer to install on OEM wheels in OEM size.
I've had a couple 911 Turbos / GTS in AWD on "summer tires" and found that the grip was just OK
on dry pavement at temps approaching 45 F, but I found the vehicle
responded in a surprising way even with AWD. And, the dealership service guy gave me the business
for driving the 911s in those temps with PZeros. Fortunately, I've always had a "winter car / truck" to augment my
drives. But, I'd like to drive the BGTS when ever I can. Expensive vehicle to park for 3 - 4 months IMO.
The Falken's should suit me well.
Thanks for the comments / recommendations.
Let us know how they feel after you road test them.
These might be a better option at that price point than the Alpin 4s
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 971
Likes: 30
From: CT-Land
The BGTS is more fun to drive than any 911 I've owned.
And, the more I can be in the driver's seat ... the better.
Plenty of power / torque in all gears ... great fun factor.
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 69
Likes: 40
I have as set of P Zeros that are cracked average temp was 2-7 degrees Celsius (never used below 0 degrees Celsius) after 4 months from new. Pirelli is a joke, they want me to buy a new set from them , send then old one's to them so they can decide whether to cover under warrantee - like I'd buy anything from them after this BS. Porsche dealer is no help, they say don't waste your time because Pirelli denies most claims. Porsche won't cover them even though the manual says you're good up to -7 C before cracking is an issue.
My advice? Get a set of Micheline UHP PS4 All Season - and don't get them through your Porsche dealer, they won't go to bat for you with the manufacture. Regarding posts saying you're doing your car a disservice; My opinion is that overall, the UHP A/S will give you better performance outside of serious track days etc. If you live near mountainous areas where the temp can get very cold in spring and fall even though it's warm in town, and if you include rain days etc - you'll be out of your tire zone with summer tires as much as with A/S, but at least with A/S you won't wreck them or get yourself into a dangerous situation.
My advice? Get a set of Micheline UHP PS4 All Season - and don't get them through your Porsche dealer, they won't go to bat for you with the manufacture. Regarding posts saying you're doing your car a disservice; My opinion is that overall, the UHP A/S will give you better performance outside of serious track days etc. If you live near mountainous areas where the temp can get very cold in spring and fall even though it's warm in town, and if you include rain days etc - you'll be out of your tire zone with summer tires as much as with A/S, but at least with A/S you won't wreck them or get yourself into a dangerous situation.
Last edited by Kats; Dec 21, 2022 at 09:46 PM.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 253
Likes: 200
Temps here in the UK have been as low as -6C (21F) with no ice or snow and the PZ4s have been fine , just don't drive like an idiot. Fortunately our temps have risen to 13C now so I wont fit my winters until we have a bout of heavy snow fall.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 1,857
From: Franklin, TN. USA
Winter has arrived and the Michelin A/S 4 (Ultra High-Performance) are EXCELLENT !!!
https://rennlist.com/forums/718-gts-...l#post18529891
Terry
https://rennlist.com/forums/718-gts-...l#post18529891
Terry