1962 Notchback Coupe with top chopped off...HUH?.
08-30-2006, 12:50 AM
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1962 Notchback Coupe with top chopped off...HUH?.
Well, I have a question that I am sure that this group can answer…OK, the pressure is on!
It is a value question, and a history question.
I am looking at a 1962 Karmann Notchback (titled as a coupe), BUT, the roof has been removed and it is now a cab/roadster. The owner told me a story that the Karmann coupes were actually Cab that had a roof welded on, so in essence, the car is actually brought back to 'original'….
So, I passed on the car as I am leery of the story and went home to my laptop and did some research…sure enough, in the History section of 356.org, I see the following:
1961: The Karmann Coachwerks is employed to make the "Hardtop", which is a Cabriolet body with a fixed hard roof. This profile gives the car the knickname "Notchback". Nearly 1750 of these cars will be made over two years' production
So, the owner was not lying…
My questions…forgetting condition as this is the ultimate factor in these cars values, HOW DOES the removal of the hard top hurt the value of the car?
Is the 1962 notchback less susceptible to a decrease in value with the top chopped off because it was originally a Cab?
I have to say, this cars gaps were excellent and the 15 miles spirited drive proved that this car was in fact VERY solid. I had a '64 SC Cab for a few years that was not nearly as tight as this car….
So, to put is another way, I have 2 cars in the SAME condition,
1) A regular coupe with the top chopped off
2) A notchback with the top chopped off
Is there less depreciation in the notchback?
ALSO, this car is a 1962, titled as such. It has a split grill, is this standard for a 1962 notchback? I recall a split grill of some year being a bit unique...
Many thanks…
AC
It is a value question, and a history question.
I am looking at a 1962 Karmann Notchback (titled as a coupe), BUT, the roof has been removed and it is now a cab/roadster. The owner told me a story that the Karmann coupes were actually Cab that had a roof welded on, so in essence, the car is actually brought back to 'original'….
So, I passed on the car as I am leery of the story and went home to my laptop and did some research…sure enough, in the History section of 356.org, I see the following:
1961: The Karmann Coachwerks is employed to make the "Hardtop", which is a Cabriolet body with a fixed hard roof. This profile gives the car the knickname "Notchback". Nearly 1750 of these cars will be made over two years' production
So, the owner was not lying…
My questions…forgetting condition as this is the ultimate factor in these cars values, HOW DOES the removal of the hard top hurt the value of the car?
Is the 1962 notchback less susceptible to a decrease in value with the top chopped off because it was originally a Cab?
I have to say, this cars gaps were excellent and the 15 miles spirited drive proved that this car was in fact VERY solid. I had a '64 SC Cab for a few years that was not nearly as tight as this car….
So, to put is another way, I have 2 cars in the SAME condition,
1) A regular coupe with the top chopped off
2) A notchback with the top chopped off
Is there less depreciation in the notchback?
ALSO, this car is a 1962, titled as such. It has a split grill, is this standard for a 1962 notchback? I recall a split grill of some year being a bit unique...
Many thanks…
AC
08-30-2006, 01:54 AM
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originality will always win out
is the cabriolet roof waterproof? Does it fit right? Etc etc... Quality of the work can be suspect.
I likely wouldnm't go for it.
is the cabriolet roof waterproof? Does it fit right? Etc etc... Quality of the work can be suspect.
I likely wouldnm't go for it.
08-30-2006, 02:06 AM
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Well, I left a bit of detail out...the car actually does not have a roof at all, jiust a Tonneau top. To be honest, it looks so clean with just a tonnea and no roof packed in the back...personal preference on this I guess...
It seems like an 'economical' way to get an open top 356....and I use 'economical' in the most sensative of fashion!
AC
It seems like an 'economical' way to get an open top 356....and I use 'economical' in the most sensative of fashion!
AC
08-30-2006, 02:10 AM
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Well if you don't live in a rainy area and don't mind chancing that, then it should be OK.
How much are they looking for anyways? Keep in mind the value will never be quite as high as a notch. too bad they didn't keep the old hardtop when they lopped it off and made it a removable hardtop.
How much are they looking for anyways? Keep in mind the value will never be quite as high as a notch. too bad they didn't keep the old hardtop when they lopped it off and made it a removable hardtop.
08-30-2006, 10:36 AM
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Thank you for the replies...your comments are making me think, which is always dangerous!
Back to my thought, "It seems like an 'economical' way to get an open top 356"
If I were looking at 2 cars, equal shape, one was a 62 Cab and the other was a 62 Notchback with the roof removed. What percentage less would the notchback command in your eyes.
The car I am looking at, in its current condition, looks just like a B cab I recently saw for 52K. If in fact, this 62 cab was priced spot on at 52K, what would the same condition 62 roofless notchback be worth?
AND, is the absence of a roof more or less desirable that a nothcback with the roof still welded on? Can removing the roof actually lower the value to below the coupe???? That seems implausable as this car was absolutely stunning, AND had an open top!
I guess I am enamoured by the open top cars, but fear their price. If I can get a roofless notchback, less expensive and in the same condition, then I may add this to my garage...
AC
Back to my thought, "It seems like an 'economical' way to get an open top 356"
If I were looking at 2 cars, equal shape, one was a 62 Cab and the other was a 62 Notchback with the roof removed. What percentage less would the notchback command in your eyes.
The car I am looking at, in its current condition, looks just like a B cab I recently saw for 52K. If in fact, this 62 cab was priced spot on at 52K, what would the same condition 62 roofless notchback be worth?
AND, is the absence of a roof more or less desirable that a nothcback with the roof still welded on? Can removing the roof actually lower the value to below the coupe???? That seems implausable as this car was absolutely stunning, AND had an open top!
I guess I am enamoured by the open top cars, but fear their price. If I can get a roofless notchback, less expensive and in the same condition, then I may add this to my garage...
AC
08-30-2006, 11:49 AM
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You should join the 356 Registry and ask on that group's e-mail list too.
I don't know about the fair market value of a chopped notchback. But, here are some factors, a notchback itself, although owners always advertize them as "rare," are not in fact worth more than normal coupes. In fact, some might argue they are worth less than a coupe. So, just in buying a notchback, one is not getting a highly desired 356.
Putting aside "market value," the key is value to you. I owned a 356 coupe B Damen for a number of years and loved it. It drove smoother, and crisper than pretty much every other 356 I drove to try to find a better one. It was a driver. And, I drove it everywhere, truly appreciating all that the 356 was about. It's "value" to me was soooo much more than a cherry 356 SC with every option known to Ferry, or a concours A with Rudge wheels, etc. It was pure reliable, fun.
So, on a car like that, I'd MUCH rather have a chopped notchback than a kit car Speedster, for example. Despite claims to the contrary by those that have not experienced what a real 356 is, a kit car is simply not a 356. Yes, kit cars are great cars. Great cars. But, real 356s are so much more. There is a silkiness, sportiness, solidness, Porsche-ness that the kit cars simply do not have. So, having made that point again, I'll say again, I'd much rather have a chopped than a kit, and therefore it would be worth to me at least more than a kit car in the same shape. And those kit cars do go for a decent sum these days. Consider that in the price for the chopped notch.
And, as a chopped notch, and not a highly desired "real" topless 356, you can drive it more places and truly enjoy it like I enjoyed my 356. And, that, again, is worth immeasurable dollars.
Dang, you've got me wanting one now . . .
I don't know about the fair market value of a chopped notchback. But, here are some factors, a notchback itself, although owners always advertize them as "rare," are not in fact worth more than normal coupes. In fact, some might argue they are worth less than a coupe. So, just in buying a notchback, one is not getting a highly desired 356.
Putting aside "market value," the key is value to you. I owned a 356 coupe B Damen for a number of years and loved it. It drove smoother, and crisper than pretty much every other 356 I drove to try to find a better one. It was a driver. And, I drove it everywhere, truly appreciating all that the 356 was about. It's "value" to me was soooo much more than a cherry 356 SC with every option known to Ferry, or a concours A with Rudge wheels, etc. It was pure reliable, fun.
So, on a car like that, I'd MUCH rather have a chopped notchback than a kit car Speedster, for example. Despite claims to the contrary by those that have not experienced what a real 356 is, a kit car is simply not a 356. Yes, kit cars are great cars. Great cars. But, real 356s are so much more. There is a silkiness, sportiness, solidness, Porsche-ness that the kit cars simply do not have. So, having made that point again, I'll say again, I'd much rather have a chopped than a kit, and therefore it would be worth to me at least more than a kit car in the same shape. And those kit cars do go for a decent sum these days. Consider that in the price for the chopped notch.
And, as a chopped notch, and not a highly desired "real" topless 356, you can drive it more places and truly enjoy it like I enjoyed my 356. And, that, again, is worth immeasurable dollars.
Dang, you've got me wanting one now . . .
08-30-2006, 12:46 PM
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"HOW DOES the removal of the hard top hurt the value of the car?"
Quite a bit - the size of the buyers market is much smaller & it is worth less than any comparable-condition open 356. Collectors / investors will avoid this car, and they are the ones that set the market.
"Is the 1962 notchback less susceptible to a decrease in value with the top chopped off because it was originally a Cab?"
Not by much, if at all - chopping anything overwhelms all factors except, to some small extent, chassis & mechanical condition. If the Special Wishes Dept at Porsche did the re-conversion, I suppose you could argue that it is now a "real Cab", or, if you have exceptionally well-documented records (inc photos) certifying the conversion & that it was performed at a renowned 356 restoration shop on a near perfect donor car.
"Is there less depreciation in the notchback?"
Not really, the buyers market & their valuation process will be about the same.
"split grill, is this standard for a 1962 notchback?"
Yes, the twin grille is characteristic of the T6 body, all Notchbacks are T6, last chassis type of the 356 line.
"the car actually does not have a roof at all, jiust a Tonneau top"
This further devalues the car - a proper Cab top would help market size & resale somewhat.
"What percentage less would the notchback command in your eyes."
42.7%
"Can removing the roof actually lower the value to below the coupe????"
Yes, it can - but not if you find someone like yourself to sell it to. Many questions are raised w/ such a car, too many for serious collectors. Plus, w/o a Cab top it is not a complete car.
"I am enamoured by the open top cars, but fear their price."
I don't understand - are you afraid there is going to be a collapse in authentic 356 open car values? Are you afraid you can't afford it? If you love this chopped notch, then buy it, drive, enjoy it & don't plan on selling it. Thus, your concerns about valuation are irrelevant. If making a solid 356 investment is a key factor in your happiness, then buy the 356 B Cab that Jay used to own (or one like it).
if you go for the notch, get an expert to carefully inspect it - sometimes these conversions were made due to a story (like; "how many stories did this car fall off the cliff?"). good luck!
Quite a bit - the size of the buyers market is much smaller & it is worth less than any comparable-condition open 356. Collectors / investors will avoid this car, and they are the ones that set the market.
"Is the 1962 notchback less susceptible to a decrease in value with the top chopped off because it was originally a Cab?"
Not by much, if at all - chopping anything overwhelms all factors except, to some small extent, chassis & mechanical condition. If the Special Wishes Dept at Porsche did the re-conversion, I suppose you could argue that it is now a "real Cab", or, if you have exceptionally well-documented records (inc photos) certifying the conversion & that it was performed at a renowned 356 restoration shop on a near perfect donor car.
"Is there less depreciation in the notchback?"
Not really, the buyers market & their valuation process will be about the same.
"split grill, is this standard for a 1962 notchback?"
Yes, the twin grille is characteristic of the T6 body, all Notchbacks are T6, last chassis type of the 356 line.
"the car actually does not have a roof at all, jiust a Tonneau top"
This further devalues the car - a proper Cab top would help market size & resale somewhat.
"What percentage less would the notchback command in your eyes."
42.7%
"Can removing the roof actually lower the value to below the coupe????"
Yes, it can - but not if you find someone like yourself to sell it to. Many questions are raised w/ such a car, too many for serious collectors. Plus, w/o a Cab top it is not a complete car.
"I am enamoured by the open top cars, but fear their price."
I don't understand - are you afraid there is going to be a collapse in authentic 356 open car values? Are you afraid you can't afford it? If you love this chopped notch, then buy it, drive, enjoy it & don't plan on selling it. Thus, your concerns about valuation are irrelevant. If making a solid 356 investment is a key factor in your happiness, then buy the 356 B Cab that Jay used to own (or one like it).
if you go for the notch, get an expert to carefully inspect it - sometimes these conversions were made due to a story (like; "how many stories did this car fall off the cliff?"). good luck!
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08-31-2006, 12:11 AM
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GREAT feedback, thank you! I have a lot to consider...I plan to drive the car but also want to be able to unload it as I am now on my 13th Porsche as I get the itch to buy and sell oftern... both my wife and I have 993 cabs as our 'fun' cars...I think these have staying power...I will keep you posted on my decision....
AC
AC
09-03-2006, 02:42 AM
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my 2 cents
I had a 61 Notchback that I removed the roof from. It was a horribly rusty car that had been poorly patched together and it just seemed he decent thing to do at the time. The seams were all leaded in and it was a fairly simple task to take the roof off. You cant re-use it as a removeable top though, or at least I couldnt figure out how. I managed to find a removeable hardtop at a swap meet that I intended to put on, but never finished the car. The car lacks some of the internal panels hat would surround the top mechanism, but the windshield frame is correct along the top and such. I did sell it to someone who did finish it however and Im sure he did very well on the car. Basically the car with the roof removed and properly finished, is worth more than with the top on. The notchback 356 is kind of the ugly duckling of the range and the values arent any greater than the standard coupe despite it's rarity.
By the way, my car, being a 61 was a T5 body, so the one statement made that all Karmann Hardtops "Notchbacks" are T6 Body cars is incorrect.
It will never be worth as much as a real Cab, but I think it could still be a way o have an afordable open top 356 experience without going with a replica. I'd say go for it and have some fun...just dont spend Cab money for it.
By the way, my car, being a 61 was a T5 body, so the one statement made that all Karmann Hardtops "Notchbacks" are T6 Body cars is incorrect.
It will never be worth as much as a real Cab, but I think it could still be a way o have an afordable open top 356 experience without going with a replica. I'd say go for it and have some fun...just dont spend Cab money for it.
09-03-2006, 11:25 AM
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bug, your $.02 is undervalued, thanks for the correction. I should read all the damn books I recommend to others more closely! I've dug deeper w/ some (hopefully accurate!) details...
inside Porsche, the notchback was called the Hardtop 61. starting in early '61, the chassis were constructed & converted by Karmann, shipped to Porsche-Zuffenhausen for completion.
the #s...
T5 : 1,048
T6 : 699
thus, total production was 1,747 - accounting for 2% of all 356 production types built. this makes the "twin-grille (T6) notch" among the rarest of all 356s - if not the most beloved.
An obvious question is, "why did they bother to convert a cab to a coupe? why not just build coupes?". Karmann was under contract to build cabs. all their jigs were for the cab - they did not possess the framework to make the standard coupe shape. this, at a time when Porsche sales were rapidly growing. Porsche's immediate needs for more production and Karmann's desire to make more bodies for them comprised the happy coincidence to try the Hardtop '61. Ruetter (who had built all the coupe bodies for years) was not able (&/or willing) to meet Porsche's production demand - which lead eventually to Porsche acquiring their facility. in early '62 Karmann began building "standard coupes" (must have gotten the jigs by then), which they continued to build through the end of the 356 line in '65.
so, given the rarity, why isn't the notch (esp the T6) more valuable? it is a good lesson in what makes a car valuable - it is more than low production #s. market popularity at the time is another factor, as is performance (esp competition success) and "critical success" - the evaluation of experts about styling & impact on the auto industry overall. all the notch has / had going for it was a unique appearance & low #s, due to circumstance more than anything else. since it was NOT styled as the classic 356 fastback (form follows function), unnoticed by the experts, & not raced to any distinction, it has gone unloved. someday we may see niche 356 collectors seeking the notch - how many '62 T6s can remain, esp if you find one w/ an original S90 motor?
is a chopped notch an honest recreation of a cab, an outlaw, or an outcast? I suppose it all depends upon how it is executed & one's perspective. so, ultimately, what is it worth? whatever the buyer & seller agree upon, of course. in penitence for my error, I'm taking my Karmann (non-notch) out for a drive...
inside Porsche, the notchback was called the Hardtop 61. starting in early '61, the chassis were constructed & converted by Karmann, shipped to Porsche-Zuffenhausen for completion.
the #s...
T5 : 1,048
T6 : 699
thus, total production was 1,747 - accounting for 2% of all 356 production types built. this makes the "twin-grille (T6) notch" among the rarest of all 356s - if not the most beloved.
An obvious question is, "why did they bother to convert a cab to a coupe? why not just build coupes?". Karmann was under contract to build cabs. all their jigs were for the cab - they did not possess the framework to make the standard coupe shape. this, at a time when Porsche sales were rapidly growing. Porsche's immediate needs for more production and Karmann's desire to make more bodies for them comprised the happy coincidence to try the Hardtop '61. Ruetter (who had built all the coupe bodies for years) was not able (&/or willing) to meet Porsche's production demand - which lead eventually to Porsche acquiring their facility. in early '62 Karmann began building "standard coupes" (must have gotten the jigs by then), which they continued to build through the end of the 356 line in '65.
so, given the rarity, why isn't the notch (esp the T6) more valuable? it is a good lesson in what makes a car valuable - it is more than low production #s. market popularity at the time is another factor, as is performance (esp competition success) and "critical success" - the evaluation of experts about styling & impact on the auto industry overall. all the notch has / had going for it was a unique appearance & low #s, due to circumstance more than anything else. since it was NOT styled as the classic 356 fastback (form follows function), unnoticed by the experts, & not raced to any distinction, it has gone unloved. someday we may see niche 356 collectors seeking the notch - how many '62 T6s can remain, esp if you find one w/ an original S90 motor?
is a chopped notch an honest recreation of a cab, an outlaw, or an outcast? I suppose it all depends upon how it is executed & one's perspective. so, ultimately, what is it worth? whatever the buyer & seller agree upon, of course. in penitence for my error, I'm taking my Karmann (non-notch) out for a drive...
09-03-2006, 01:39 PM
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Amen brother... it's only worth what someone will pay for it.
Ive always ben stumped at why the Karmann Hardtops arent highly prized based upon thier rarity...perhaps their time is soon to come. There may be a day when I am publicly hungand pelted with green jelly beans for removing the top from one in my youth. I will repay my debt to society by properly restoring my Reuter body 356 to exacting specifications.
And what the heck, I'll go for a drive too ...sounds like a good idea.
Ive always ben stumped at why the Karmann Hardtops arent highly prized based upon thier rarity...perhaps their time is soon to come. There may be a day when I am publicly hungand pelted with green jelly beans for removing the top from one in my youth. I will repay my debt to society by properly restoring my Reuter body 356 to exacting specifications.
And what the heck, I'll go for a drive too ...sounds like a good idea.
09-05-2006, 12:02 PM
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This board never ceases to amaze me!!!!
Well, I went for it. it is a '62 twin grill. The top was removed and as far as I can tell, they did an excellent job. I would be hard pressed to know that this was not a factory delivery. Then again, it dis start out life as a cab...
Thank you for all of your help...I now am back with an open top 356. I miss my '64 SC cab, now in Holland...
Thanks again for all of the help...I will post pics once when I get a chance to snap some...
Well, I went for it. it is a '62 twin grill. The top was removed and as far as I can tell, they did an excellent job. I would be hard pressed to know that this was not a factory delivery. Then again, it dis start out life as a cab...
Thank you for all of your help...I now am back with an open top 356. I miss my '64 SC cab, now in Holland...
Thanks again for all of the help...I will post pics once when I get a chance to snap some...
09-05-2006, 12:17 PM
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AC, Congrats!
driving & enjoying it regularly will allay all fears.
I'd look into getting a tonneau cover, just in case... also provides a bit of security & protection from sun. even neater, given that it is an outlaw of sorts, might be a hard fiberglass fairing, w/ rollbar...
driving & enjoying it regularly will allay all fears.
I'd look into getting a tonneau cover, just in case... also provides a bit of security & protection from sun. even neater, given that it is an outlaw of sorts, might be a hard fiberglass fairing, w/ rollbar...