buying a replica?
04-23-2004, 11:06 AM
#16
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As a poor college student in 1968, I bought a raggedy, rusted-out, but running pre-A Speedster for $500. Over the next three years, I did the kind of non-correct restoration appropriate for a driver that was not yet a collectible. I got most of the rust patched (replacement floors were NLA in those days), painted it, etc. For the next 19 years, I drove it regularly, loved every minute of it, and never gave a thought to what it was worth. In 1990, I realized that, even unrestored, it was worth at least 8 times what I had it insured for. Correctly restored, in those days (remember the ‘80s boom), it would have probably sold for at least $75K – possibly more since it was (according to my research) the 7th oldest Speedster in existence at the time. I could have gotten it restored correctly for about $35-40K (probably what I should have done but I didn’t have the bucks). I could have kept driving at as it was (it was still too valuable to drive as far as I was concerned and the condition was getting embarrassing). So I traded it for a pristine, low mileage 1980 SC and a substantial amount of cash. I still miss the Speedster now and then but I don’t regret the decision.
The point of this is that, every now and then, I think about getting rid of the SC and building a really good Speedster kit car. I’ve seen one Speedster replica with a square tube frame, coil-over suspension, four-wheel discs, and a 2100 cc 120 hp VW motor. It’s cosmetically correct visually and, although it’s not a Porsche, it’s arguably a “better” car then an original. It probably cost less than a third of what the real thing goes for these days. From my perspective, the logic that says 904 and 550 kits are okay because the real thing is too expensive to drive applies equally to $75K Speedsters. It’s unfortunate but, for me, Speedsters are no longer in the “driver” category. My cutoff is about $30K for something I’m going to subject to the risks of the mean streets and parking garages.
I’ve seen a number of Beck 550 Spyders and they are usually really well done. Unfortunately, it’s kind of like being on a motorcycle and not very practical unless you live in a really benign climate.
Personally, I wouldn’t pay $5K for a 904 replica but if someone will just come up with a 906 – I’ll seriously consider replacing my SC.
BTW - I didn't realize that Intermecannica was still in business - As I recall, their stuff was head and shoulders above the others.
The point of this is that, every now and then, I think about getting rid of the SC and building a really good Speedster kit car. I’ve seen one Speedster replica with a square tube frame, coil-over suspension, four-wheel discs, and a 2100 cc 120 hp VW motor. It’s cosmetically correct visually and, although it’s not a Porsche, it’s arguably a “better” car then an original. It probably cost less than a third of what the real thing goes for these days. From my perspective, the logic that says 904 and 550 kits are okay because the real thing is too expensive to drive applies equally to $75K Speedsters. It’s unfortunate but, for me, Speedsters are no longer in the “driver” category. My cutoff is about $30K for something I’m going to subject to the risks of the mean streets and parking garages.
I’ve seen a number of Beck 550 Spyders and they are usually really well done. Unfortunately, it’s kind of like being on a motorcycle and not very practical unless you live in a really benign climate.
Personally, I wouldn’t pay $5K for a 904 replica but if someone will just come up with a 906 – I’ll seriously consider replacing my SC.
BTW - I didn't realize that Intermecannica was still in business - As I recall, their stuff was head and shoulders above the others.
04-24-2004, 10:56 AM
#17
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I think that there is some consensus here and tend to agree with it. That is, where the original is so valuable and even irreplaceable, buy a good replica. Otherwise, get the real thing. 356's are all very affordable, except the Speedster ($100-150-ish). I drive everything very hard and would probably do the same with a real Speedster and destroy it or at least its value...
Also, I think we should clarify "replica" versus "recreation". There are a lot of replicas out there and most of these are "kit cars" and not something you'd be happy with. Then, there are recreations, like the 904's, 908's, Jaguar XKC's, Ford GT40's (ERA, CAV), Cobras (Kirkham), etc. I am building a 550 replica/recreation. I am not going for originality in the mechanicals, though I am getting a Polopolus 911-4 motor, 951 brakes, 915 transmission and as many other real Porsche pieces as I can in it to keep the "spirit" of the thing right. At $750,000 I don;t want to be driving the original 550 spyder (and doubt I'd like the positive camber snap oversteer much anyway...)
Gordon
Also, I think we should clarify "replica" versus "recreation". There are a lot of replicas out there and most of these are "kit cars" and not something you'd be happy with. Then, there are recreations, like the 904's, 908's, Jaguar XKC's, Ford GT40's (ERA, CAV), Cobras (Kirkham), etc. I am building a 550 replica/recreation. I am not going for originality in the mechanicals, though I am getting a Polopolus 911-4 motor, 951 brakes, 915 transmission and as many other real Porsche pieces as I can in it to keep the "spirit" of the thing right. At $750,000 I don;t want to be driving the original 550 spyder (and doubt I'd like the positive camber snap oversteer much anyway...)
Gordon
05-02-2004, 01:38 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
I have known the guy with that Beck 550 for a year and have never seen it move. Also the finish of the replica is bad compared to maintained Porsches I have seen from the era.
When the wife and I buy a 356 someday it will be a real one!
When the wife and I buy a 356 someday it will be a real one!
07-07-2004, 01:45 PM
#19
Instructor
Teflon,
Counter to some of the old-timer opinions(and I've owned Porsches for 42 years), I think you'd enjoy a quality 356 Replica as long as you consider it just a "fun to drive" appliance and enjoy it for what it is.
I had a new 1962 Super 90 in Germany and have wonderful memories of that car and era in life. Fifteen years ago or so I searched for a moderately restored or maintained 356B or C to rekindle passion. After looking at a number of Drivers vs Garage Queens that you could not drive, I told my wife the search was over! Every car I drove creaked, rattled, and groaned in a way that destroyed the memories I had of the original. In truth, they drove like a Quarter Century old car that had aged somewhat gracefully and only reminded me of creaks and arthritis emerging in my own aging body. Preservation of the original memories (accurate or not!) was far more important than looking at some "Tub" that could only draw irritating comparisons of what it (and I!) once were in blissful youth.
Three solutions:
1. Buy a Miata...it is everything a rightful evolution of a 356 should have been rather than a (using others terms) POSEUR like a Boxster! Shame on Porsche for drawing a comparison with the original 550 in an attempt to stop the 44 percent sales decline of the Boxster this year! The Miata is lightweight, easy and forgiving to drive, super dependability, modest but balanced to chassis power, and comparatively low price.
2. Buy a Replica for what it is...it will not replicate the original! I have an Intermeccanica 356A Convertible D Replica fabricated originally in 1989. It does NOT remind me of my Super 90 Coupe except vaguely. It has great interior room (I'm 6' 2"), beautiful fiberglass, all original Porsche instruments, separate frame (not VW cut), early 911S suspension and wheels, 4 wheel discs, and a Mexican Case Liteweight (compared to a 356 engine rebuild or even early 911) Webered, Oil Cooler, etc with an output of 180 horsepower or so. Comparison with any "original" 356 is visual only. Fun to drive, loud, faster than the Miata, but mediocre handling compared to a modern automobile.
3. Look for a borderline Driver/Well Restored 356B or C Coupe only. At the Kruse Auction last fall they had a 356B Coupe that had undergone a complete restoration by a reputable facility about 10 years earlier and driven only about 1000 miles since. Other than a non-original (as I recall)Appliance White color, it looked great...body work, underneath, engine, interior, ride height, etc. While I was leaning against the auction building door arguing with myself about buying it and finally deciding to make a bid up to $29.9K, the hammer dropped and someone else got it for $28.5K.
Best Luck in your Search,
Perry
Intermeccanica 356A Convertible D REPLICA
96 911 C2 Cabrio
99 Miata
86 MB 190E-16 28K
plus other assorted daily Driving Appliances (PT Cruiser, F150, etc) and long gone appliances in unsuccessful attempts to break the "real" Porsche addiction (67,69 Corvette, 74 Datsun 260Z, 95 BMW M3, etc)
Counter to some of the old-timer opinions(and I've owned Porsches for 42 years), I think you'd enjoy a quality 356 Replica as long as you consider it just a "fun to drive" appliance and enjoy it for what it is.
I had a new 1962 Super 90 in Germany and have wonderful memories of that car and era in life. Fifteen years ago or so I searched for a moderately restored or maintained 356B or C to rekindle passion. After looking at a number of Drivers vs Garage Queens that you could not drive, I told my wife the search was over! Every car I drove creaked, rattled, and groaned in a way that destroyed the memories I had of the original. In truth, they drove like a Quarter Century old car that had aged somewhat gracefully and only reminded me of creaks and arthritis emerging in my own aging body. Preservation of the original memories (accurate or not!) was far more important than looking at some "Tub" that could only draw irritating comparisons of what it (and I!) once were in blissful youth.
Three solutions:
1. Buy a Miata...it is everything a rightful evolution of a 356 should have been rather than a (using others terms) POSEUR like a Boxster! Shame on Porsche for drawing a comparison with the original 550 in an attempt to stop the 44 percent sales decline of the Boxster this year! The Miata is lightweight, easy and forgiving to drive, super dependability, modest but balanced to chassis power, and comparatively low price.
2. Buy a Replica for what it is...it will not replicate the original! I have an Intermeccanica 356A Convertible D Replica fabricated originally in 1989. It does NOT remind me of my Super 90 Coupe except vaguely. It has great interior room (I'm 6' 2"), beautiful fiberglass, all original Porsche instruments, separate frame (not VW cut), early 911S suspension and wheels, 4 wheel discs, and a Mexican Case Liteweight (compared to a 356 engine rebuild or even early 911) Webered, Oil Cooler, etc with an output of 180 horsepower or so. Comparison with any "original" 356 is visual only. Fun to drive, loud, faster than the Miata, but mediocre handling compared to a modern automobile.
3. Look for a borderline Driver/Well Restored 356B or C Coupe only. At the Kruse Auction last fall they had a 356B Coupe that had undergone a complete restoration by a reputable facility about 10 years earlier and driven only about 1000 miles since. Other than a non-original (as I recall)Appliance White color, it looked great...body work, underneath, engine, interior, ride height, etc. While I was leaning against the auction building door arguing with myself about buying it and finally deciding to make a bid up to $29.9K, the hammer dropped and someone else got it for $28.5K.
Best Luck in your Search,
Perry
Intermeccanica 356A Convertible D REPLICA
96 911 C2 Cabrio
99 Miata
86 MB 190E-16 28K
plus other assorted daily Driving Appliances (PT Cruiser, F150, etc) and long gone appliances in unsuccessful attempts to break the "real" Porsche addiction (67,69 Corvette, 74 Datsun 260Z, 95 BMW M3, etc)
07-08-2004, 03:48 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
well, now that i've had a couple of months, i can tell you what i did.
first of all, my C4 was sold a couple of weeks ago. i bought a nissan xterra to replace it. "HUH?" is probably what a lot of you reading this are saying. well, i also just bought a new house that needs some work, so i needed a big car that i can carry home depot purchases in. and i simply wanted a bigger car. and my new house's location means that i'll now be driving to a train station every day and parking my car. there's no way i was going to park my C4 at a train station every day. i've heard too many horror stories of parking lots dings and dents from coworkers.
where does that leave me? without a porsche for now.
but, i'm going to start looking next spring for a 356 coupe or convertible replica. i'm leaning more towards the coupe simply because i feel like i'm not going to feel satisfied driving around a replica, i'll need the real thing to be happy. when the time draws nearer, i'll probably be back for some advice on my purchase again. 
first of all, my C4 was sold a couple of weeks ago. i bought a nissan xterra to replace it. "HUH?" is probably what a lot of you reading this are saying. well, i also just bought a new house that needs some work, so i needed a big car that i can carry home depot purchases in. and i simply wanted a bigger car. and my new house's location means that i'll now be driving to a train station every day and parking my car. there's no way i was going to park my C4 at a train station every day. i've heard too many horror stories of parking lots dings and dents from coworkers.
where does that leave me? without a porsche for now.
but, i'm going to start looking next spring for a 356 coupe or convertible replica. i'm leaning more towards the coupe simply because i feel like i'm not going to feel satisfied driving around a replica, i'll need the real thing to be happy. when the time draws nearer, i'll probably be back for some advice on my purchase again.
07-14-2004, 11:41 AM
#21
Burning Brakes
A tangential reply: a few years ago I built a Cobra replica. Having been around Shelbys, I can say honestly that it was a much better car mechanically than a real one and it was about $350,000 cheaper. However, in the last few months of the build, I bought my first 911, and when the Cobra rep was done, I sold it immediately and have been a Porsche guy ever since.
That said, I have always wondered why the replica guys don't do 904/906s. The original cars were fiberglas, and there are molds floating around. They could be built on 914 floor pans, no prob. And they would be about $300k cheaper than the two originals that are for sale here locally.
Steve
99 996
76 930
64 356C
62 356B
That said, I have always wondered why the replica guys don't do 904/906s. The original cars were fiberglas, and there are molds floating around. They could be built on 914 floor pans, no prob. And they would be about $300k cheaper than the two originals that are for sale here locally.
Steve
99 996
76 930
64 356C
62 356B
07-15-2004, 12:51 PM
#23
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UberXY - Although I can’t agree on the 904, I’d love to see someone market a faithful 906 replica. There are a number of problems though. “Using a 914 floor pan” probably won’t work since it’s a unit body (unlike the VW pans used on many kit cars) but much of the drivetrain and suspension might be usable. If I were doing it, I’d be more inclined to try to do a tube frame and use 911 components. As attractive as I (and others) find the 906, there are several things about the car that may explain why nobody has come up with a kit. Most important, look at the “cabin” area. It has lots of glass (actually probably plexiglass) with little apparent ventilation - it would be miserable in the Summer, which, of course, is when you would want to drive it. In addition, look at the shape and size of the front and rear “glass” - complicated and large. Worst of all, even if it’s a dynamite kit, it would never sell in Cobra, 356 Speedster, or 550 Spyder quantities.
Another kit I’d like to see is either an RS-60 or RSK Spyder. I find these both to be more attractive than the 550 and, as good as the Beck product is, there are just too many of them out there. There is an RS-60 kit on the market but it’s on a chopped VW platform (rear, not mid-engine) and the back just doesn’t look right.
If I had a few hundred thou (or probably more) of someone else’s $$$ to risk, I’d love to find some talented fabricators and take on one of these as a project.
Another kit I’d like to see is either an RS-60 or RSK Spyder. I find these both to be more attractive than the 550 and, as good as the Beck product is, there are just too many of them out there. There is an RS-60 kit on the market but it’s on a chopped VW platform (rear, not mid-engine) and the back just doesn’t look right.
If I had a few hundred thou (or probably more) of someone else’s $$$ to risk, I’d love to find some talented fabricators and take on one of these as a project.
07-16-2004, 06:11 PM
#24
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
If it's truly just a weekend car, how about a 550 replica (Beck or Vintage Spyders) - those like like tons of fun!
07-20-2004, 02:58 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Originally posted by GrantG
If it's truly just a weekend car, how about a 550 replica (Beck or Vintage Spyders) - those like like tons of fun!
If it's truly just a weekend car, how about a 550 replica (Beck or Vintage Spyders) - those like like tons of fun!
07-24-2004, 11:13 PM
#27
I have a Vintage 550 Spyder.
It's got the 2275 CC engine (180 hp, 152 at the wheels) which is plenty of get-up-and-go for me. But as someone noted, it's really a weekend car. The "motorcycle on wheels" analogy is appropriate (you live in fear of cellphone-talking SUV drivers). Also, with no top, you have to keep an eye on the weather forecast.
With the Spyder, originals are so rare and expensive (only around 145 built WORLDWIDE) that even the owners rarely drive them. So a replica is pretty much the only realistic way to go.
I'm keeping my eyes open for an original 356 coupe. Although values on these cars have risen in recent years (according to a recent Excellence magazine market report), nice examples can still be had in the 20s. A 356 is the kind of car that probably won't depreciate a bit while you own it.
You might check out speedsterowners.com. I believe that some owners of Speedster replicas hang out there.
It's got the 2275 CC engine (180 hp, 152 at the wheels) which is plenty of get-up-and-go for me. But as someone noted, it's really a weekend car. The "motorcycle on wheels" analogy is appropriate (you live in fear of cellphone-talking SUV drivers). Also, with no top, you have to keep an eye on the weather forecast.
With the Spyder, originals are so rare and expensive (only around 145 built WORLDWIDE) that even the owners rarely drive them. So a replica is pretty much the only realistic way to go.
I'm keeping my eyes open for an original 356 coupe. Although values on these cars have risen in recent years (according to a recent Excellence magazine market report), nice examples can still be had in the 20s. A 356 is the kind of car that probably won't depreciate a bit while you own it.
You might check out speedsterowners.com. I believe that some owners of Speedster replicas hang out there.
07-25-2004, 07:19 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
Sean: that is a nice 550 rep, and I am sure you enjoy it.
A few months ago I had the chance to closely inspect a vintage race 550 in a nearby Porsche shop. The owner had installed a 12 volt battery and a fire followed. It was a beautiful little car that most likely deserved a gentler life. Still, I am willing to bet your rep is better made, as the 550's are pretty primitive, which adds to their grace.
Steve
99 996
76 930
64 356C
62 356B
00 M5
A few months ago I had the chance to closely inspect a vintage race 550 in a nearby Porsche shop. The owner had installed a 12 volt battery and a fire followed. It was a beautiful little car that most likely deserved a gentler life. Still, I am willing to bet your rep is better made, as the 550's are pretty primitive, which adds to their grace.
Steve
99 996
76 930
64 356C
62 356B
00 M5
