Transitioning to LFB
01-06-2017, 07:17 AM
#16
Instructor
Thread Starter
A laudable and worthy goal! 
Like I have said before in a variety of A-B comparisons, NEVER ASSUME one will be quicker than the other!
Instead, master (as best you can) BOTH and then, MEASURE!
In this case, that measure will be the stopwatch...
The more I do (and have done) this detailed analysis of HOW drivers achieve particular performance levels, the less I become wedded to one particular approach over others.
Having compiled data from already high achieving individuals (pros, but not all pros...) and even more data from drivers who have made smaller (and bigger) leaps to nearly (or actually) match the performance levels of good pros, it's apparent that LFB is NOT the "silver bullet" for quite a few that believe that it may be...
I'll think about this more and reply, but as I've said before, the less people need to THINK about how they execute control inputs, the less delay and error (or more potential opportunity for improvement) is likely.
Like I have said before in a variety of A-B comparisons, NEVER ASSUME one will be quicker than the other!Instead, master (as best you can) BOTH and then, MEASURE!
In this case, that measure will be the stopwatch...The more I do (and have done) this detailed analysis of HOW drivers achieve particular performance levels, the less I become wedded to one particular approach over others.
Having compiled data from already high achieving individuals (pros, but not all pros...) and even more data from drivers who have made smaller (and bigger) leaps to nearly (or actually) match the performance levels of good pros, it's apparent that LFB is NOT the "silver bullet" for quite a few that believe that it may be...
I'll think about this more and reply, but as I've said before, the less people need to THINK about how they execute control inputs, the less delay and error (or more potential opportunity for improvement) is likely.
Both Championships have half a dozen Pros competing so the bench mark is good. We also work with a number of Pros (in other Championships) and roughly half of those LFB.
One particular Pro was telling me a story a few years ago - He went through the usual National and International Karting ranks as a kid and then into single seaters. When he got to F3 he was racing against Jenson Button, Gary Paffett, etc... After a few rounds his engineer suggested he tried RFB. He went and won the next race! He's RFB ever since.
So I'm not expecting to find a huge amount of time, but a tenth or two would make a huge difference in the Endurance Championship. Hence why I was hoping to find a direct comparison of data showing a resultant X time gain with all other things being identical.
From a psychological point this would probably make the process easier for me
I look forward to anymore thoughts you have...
01-06-2017, 09:09 AM
#17
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We also work with a number of Pros (in other Championships) and roughly half of those LFB.
After a few rounds his engineer suggested he tried RFB. He went and won the next race! He's RFB ever since.
Hence why I was hoping to find a direct comparison of data showing a resultant X time gain with all other things being identical.
From a psychological point this would probably make the process easier for me
I look forward to anymore thoughts you have...
After a few rounds his engineer suggested he tried RFB. He went and won the next race! He's RFB ever since.
Hence why I was hoping to find a direct comparison of data showing a resultant X time gain with all other things being identical.
From a psychological point this would probably make the process easier for me
I look forward to anymore thoughts you have...
At the top level, of the folks I have information for, it's about 55/45, RFB/LFB respectively.
Hmmm. I know of whom you speak, and if he's the same driver, he's a no BS kind of guy. So count on that as a good data point!
Looking through a few examples (your query piqued my interest) in a cursory way before the next three days get busy, my challenge is "with all other things being identical."
The back to back comparisons I have either do not have executions at the highest level (as drivers perform exercises to become proficient with a different way of executing this fundamental skill) or there are other variables (car/track/environmentals) that prevent a "direct comparison of data showing resultant X time gain."
There are simply too many other variables to suggest THAT one technique will gain you, categorically and without exception, X time done one way over the other. There are TOO many variations STILL in the quality of the execution, with EITHER foot, for ME to say...
Moving back from the "micro" level to a more "macro" level, perfecting the choreography of blending one axis of force acting on the car to the next axis (and keeping those forces at a high level) IS what will return "resultant X time gain," if executed well. THIS is what you should focus on...
And herein lies the rub... you suggest this validation would benefit you psychologically in your quest. And I agree! It has been proven that the mind is malleable enough to subconsciously allow one to "follow through" on a kernal of belief, like this one, and PROVE (or at least, improve) the physical outcome. Your grin at the end of that sentence shows you KNOW this to be true!
So, I'd like you to approach this from a different angle. Instead of "needing to know" the outcome of this data to direct your technique selection, incorporate a rigorous learning and testing methodology, JUST like Mike Hedlund (fleadh) did, and build your own "test."
Practice on the road, dedicate test sessions on the track, increase the quality of execution and, most of all, don't rush to judgment that there IS one technique that is arbitrarily and in every case better than the other. Let YOUR data SHOW YOU which is quicker...
DON'T rush to that judgement, either. It takes time to do one as well as the other... This is much of my work, at the track with drivers, so I DO have quite a lot of data showing people improving using this method!
Your endurance car has three pedals (I'm assuming) and your GT4 MR has two... don't discount the idea of using two approaches to elevate your best execution of fundamental skills to the highest level, for each...
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
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"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
Last edited by ProCoach; 01-06-2017 at 09:26 AM.
01-06-2017, 09:53 AM
#18
Instructor
Thread Starter
Hahaha! I understand completely. But there is no "silver bullet..."
At the top level, of the folks I have information for, it's about 55/45, RFB/LFB respectively.
Hmmm. I know of whom you speak, and if he's the same driver, he's a no BS kind of guy. So count on that as a good data point!
Looking through a few examples (your query piqued my interest) in a cursory way before the next three days get busy, my challenge is "with all other things being identical."
The back to back comparisons I have either do not have executions at the highest level (as drivers perform exercises to become proficient with a different way of executing this fundamental skill) or there are other variables (car/track/environmentals) that prevent a "direct comparison of data showing resultant X time gain."
There are simply too many other variables to suggest THAT one technique will gain you, categorically and without exception, X time done one way over the other. There are TOO many variations STILL in the quality of the execution, with EITHER foot, for ME to say...
Moving back from the "micro" level to a more "macro" level, perfecting the choreography of blending one axis of force acting on the car to the next axis (and keeping those forces at a high level) IS what will return "resultant X time gain," if executed well. THIS is what you should focus on...
And herein lies the rub... you suggest this validation would benefit you psychologically in your quest. And I agree! It has been proven that the mind is malleable enough to subconsciously allow one to "follow through" on a kernal of belief, like this one, and PROVE (or at least, improve) the physical outcome. Your grin at the end of that sentence shows you KNOW this to be true!
So, I'd like you to approach this from a different angle. Instead of "needing to know" the outcome of this data to direct your technique selection, incorporate a rigorous learning and testing methodology, JUST like Mike Hedlund (fleadh) did, and build your own "test."
Practice on the road, dedicate test sessions on the track, increase the quality of execution and, most of all, don't rush to judgment that there IS one technique that is arbitrarily and in every case better than the other. Let YOUR data SHOW YOU which is quicker...
DON'T rush to that judgement, either. It takes time to do one as well as the other... This is much of my work, at the track with drivers, so I DO have quite a lot of data showing people improving using this method!
Your endurance car has three pedals (I'm assuming) and your GT4 MR has two... don't discount the idea of using two approaches to elevate your best execution of fundamental skills to the highest level, for each...
At the top level, of the folks I have information for, it's about 55/45, RFB/LFB respectively.
Hmmm. I know of whom you speak, and if he's the same driver, he's a no BS kind of guy. So count on that as a good data point!
Looking through a few examples (your query piqued my interest) in a cursory way before the next three days get busy, my challenge is "with all other things being identical."
The back to back comparisons I have either do not have executions at the highest level (as drivers perform exercises to become proficient with a different way of executing this fundamental skill) or there are other variables (car/track/environmentals) that prevent a "direct comparison of data showing resultant X time gain."
There are simply too many other variables to suggest THAT one technique will gain you, categorically and without exception, X time done one way over the other. There are TOO many variations STILL in the quality of the execution, with EITHER foot, for ME to say...
Moving back from the "micro" level to a more "macro" level, perfecting the choreography of blending one axis of force acting on the car to the next axis (and keeping those forces at a high level) IS what will return "resultant X time gain," if executed well. THIS is what you should focus on...
And herein lies the rub... you suggest this validation would benefit you psychologically in your quest. And I agree! It has been proven that the mind is malleable enough to subconsciously allow one to "follow through" on a kernal of belief, like this one, and PROVE (or at least, improve) the physical outcome. Your grin at the end of that sentence shows you KNOW this to be true!
So, I'd like you to approach this from a different angle. Instead of "needing to know" the outcome of this data to direct your technique selection, incorporate a rigorous learning and testing methodology, JUST like Mike Hedlund (fleadh) did, and build your own "test."
Practice on the road, dedicate test sessions on the track, increase the quality of execution and, most of all, don't rush to judgment that there IS one technique that is arbitrarily and in every case better than the other. Let YOUR data SHOW YOU which is quicker...
DON'T rush to that judgement, either. It takes time to do one as well as the other... This is much of my work, at the track with drivers, so I DO have quite a lot of data showing people improving using this method!
Your endurance car has three pedals (I'm assuming) and your GT4 MR has two... don't discount the idea of using two approaches to elevate your best execution of fundamental skills to the highest level, for each...
I suspected that would be the case.
You got me
This is actually another area I am working on this season. I really have until the first race of the season (April) to determine which is best (or if they are equal I will continue developing LFB), as my Team mates will be expecting a certain level of performance. I'm fully aware that this may well not be enough time but should give me a good idea and I may well then continue with it during test sessions that allow throughout the season.
My current plan is Sim work, strength and control training and pre-season test sessions to determine which direction to go in.
Thank you for your advice and time Peter, its very much appreciated.
01-06-2017, 10:54 AM
#20
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Typically, I'll set my pedals up for as much as 90 kg pedal force required at maximum decel. Then, I'll do a 90 minute stint on a track that requires repeated heavy braking from high speeds (which is hard for me to maintain consistently over the entire length of the stint). Then, export the data and have a look ACROSS the duration of the session, looking for any drop off...
If you're in the UK, look up (or better yet, book a session) at Base Performance Sims, Darren Turner's company. Here: http://baseperformance.net/
The resources they can offer are truly terrific!
01-06-2017, 01:35 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
I also went to LFB this year in the NP01- Totally different and super easy to transition since you never use the clutch with the sequential on the NP01. The first few times were hilarious. I found my feet getting confused (practice on open track)- I would forget where my left foot was (pedals are close). I was also getting use to the sequential at the same time- I stabbed the brake pedal like a clutch the first time out. that was funny, but you will only do it once....
Now after the season it is second nature. I still do have to remind myself when going out of the pits/or going in, to consciously turn on "LFB switch" in my brain.
Do people "hover' their foot over the brake pedal 90% of the time when only LFB? Is that considered OK as long as you are not dragging the brake with a sequesntial?
Now after the season it is second nature. I still do have to remind myself when going out of the pits/or going in, to consciously turn on "LFB switch" in my brain.
Do people "hover' their foot over the brake pedal 90% of the time when only LFB? Is that considered OK as long as you are not dragging the brake with a sequesntial?
01-06-2017, 02:25 PM
#22
Instructor
Thread Starter
One more thing. Make SURE the sim pedals are set up (with enough resistance) and fixed VERY well between the seat and the pedals. The goal is to replicate what you'll feel with the unboosted brake pedal.
Typically, I'll set my pedals up for as much as 90 kg pedal force required at maximum decel. Then, I'll do a 90 minute stint on a track that requires repeated heavy braking from high speeds (which is hard for me to maintain consistently over the entire length of the stint). Then, export the data and have a look ACROSS the duration of the session, looking for any drop off...
If you're in the UK, look up (or better yet, book a session) at Base Performance Sims, Darren Turner's company. Here: http://baseperformance.net/
The resources they can offer are truly terrific!
Typically, I'll set my pedals up for as much as 90 kg pedal force required at maximum decel. Then, I'll do a 90 minute stint on a track that requires repeated heavy braking from high speeds (which is hard for me to maintain consistently over the entire length of the stint). Then, export the data and have a look ACROSS the duration of the session, looking for any drop off...
If you're in the UK, look up (or better yet, book a session) at Base Performance Sims, Darren Turner's company. Here: http://baseperformance.net/
The resources they can offer are truly terrific!
Yes I'm aware of Base Performance, although I've not been there yet.
01-06-2017, 02:31 PM
#23
Instructor
Thread Starter
I also went to LFB this year in the NP01- Totally different and super easy to transition since you never use the clutch with the sequential on the NP01. The first few times were hilarious. I found my feet getting confused (practice on open track)- I would forget where my left foot was (pedals are close). I was also getting use to the sequential at the same time- I stabbed the brake pedal like a clutch the first time out. that was funny, but you will only do it once....
Now after the season it is second nature. I still do have to remind myself when going out of the pits/or going in, to consciously turn on "LFB switch" in my brain.
Do people "hover' their foot over the brake pedal 90% of the time when only LFB? Is that considered OK as long as you are not dragging the brake with a sequesntial?
Now after the season it is second nature. I still do have to remind myself when going out of the pits/or going in, to consciously turn on "LFB switch" in my brain.
Do people "hover' their foot over the brake pedal 90% of the time when only LFB? Is that considered OK as long as you are not dragging the brake with a sequesntial?
I tested a car at the end of last year and purposely only LFB from the get go. It was a new car and circuit. I was using someone else's seat insert which meant it was uncomfortable to move my left foot back to the footrest so I ended up with it over the pedal at all times. Usually I would move my foot back to the foot rest for some support on corner exit. I've seen Pros do both.
Looking at the data there was a section where I gentle breathed on the brake for a little weight transfer just after initiating the turn and then absolutely hammered aggressive apex kerbs. The video and data showed on occasions my foot was touching the pedal as I bounced over the kerbs just enough to turn the switch on, not ideal but it wasn't slowing me at all. FIA GT4 rules stipulate that a brake light switch is fitted in the cabin in view of the mandatory in-car camera. Its in case of incidents and driving standards issues.
01-06-2017, 05:56 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
I think it also really helps to have a seat which limits the lateral travel of your legs. In my bead seat, my legs stay right over the pedals even at Sebring.
I got used to running LFB by driving my truck around for a while using LFB. Took a little bit to get used to especially since your left foot tends to 'float' around in a typical truck. I can now brake at the limit in my formula car as well as my right foot. The pedal pressure to lock my car's brakes is undoubtedly wayyyy lower than a Porsche Cup so fatigue has never been a factor.
01-08-2017, 09:52 PM
#25
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But when I hover over brake pedal, my lower back gets stiff and tired, probably because of pedals being so much to the right or some other reason. And when I have left foot on the dead pedal, I tend to "lock" the leg bracing myself (probably unnecessarily) and thus sometimes be a moment too late on brakes. I think I can make either approach work with some practice, but I'm just not sure which one is better.
FWIW, on the sim I always LFB with left foot hovering over brakes, and I'm absolutely confident that it's faster than RFB (at least for me).
In real life, seating position and leg placement issues take away from my performance more than LFB-ing adds, so I'm less consistent and ultimately slower when LFB-ing. But I did not practice it much in real life because I have lower hanging fruit to work on.
Last edited by MaxLTV; 01-09-2017 at 12:49 AM.
01-08-2017, 10:25 PM
#26
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No hovering. Only when you need to...
01-08-2017, 10:27 PM
#27
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01-09-2017, 11:14 AM
#28
Burning Brakes
I spent all of last season and the last 3 days co-driving with a works Porsche driver who RFB's and I can tell you there isn't a real pace advantage in LFB'ing. You may be more "comfortable" or "confident" but it by itself isn't faster (perhaps a TINY bit in IndyCar or F1, but that's it. and the reasoning is simply the performance envelope of the chassis).
In modern Hybrid P1's the engineers will make you RFB because of the overlap LFB'ing generates (and the fuel/energy it wastes, even from the BEST drivers).
Anyway, just my 2c. Continue to believe what you will if it makes you faster! :-)
ps: i'm sticking with LFB'ing until someone pry's my right foot from the gas pedal.
pps: another thing to watch for when LFB'ing is resting your right foot too close to the gas pedal in braking zones, especially bumpy ones. It's really easy to have your foot touch the pedal or rest against the right side pedal plate (in the case of a 991 Cup) in the braking zone or under heavy turning loads. You won't even realize you're doing it unless you are diligent about studying the data after every session (and you'll wonder why the hell you held 5% throttle through the braking zone and why the car understeers for you but nobody else...). I have this problem sometimes because I jump between a lot of different cars (and even chassis of the same type) and the pedals are always a little differently spaced.
-mike
In modern Hybrid P1's the engineers will make you RFB because of the overlap LFB'ing generates (and the fuel/energy it wastes, even from the BEST drivers).
Anyway, just my 2c. Continue to believe what you will if it makes you faster! :-)
ps: i'm sticking with LFB'ing until someone pry's my right foot from the gas pedal.
pps: another thing to watch for when LFB'ing is resting your right foot too close to the gas pedal in braking zones, especially bumpy ones. It's really easy to have your foot touch the pedal or rest against the right side pedal plate (in the case of a 991 Cup) in the braking zone or under heavy turning loads. You won't even realize you're doing it unless you are diligent about studying the data after every session (and you'll wonder why the hell you held 5% throttle through the braking zone and why the car understeers for you but nobody else...). I have this problem sometimes because I jump between a lot of different cars (and even chassis of the same type) and the pedals are always a little differently spaced.
-mike
01-09-2017, 01:42 PM
#29
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Surprised at so many people saying how easy it is. I just can't modulate the pressure correctly. For me my brain interprets left foot braking as "on" or "off". I wind up locking up. Took me a while to get heel toe down so maybe I'm just not coordinated.
Seriously, I feel like my life is in danger when I try to LFB. Maybe I'll try doing it on iRacing or Forza. Anyone had any luck with that?
Seriously, I feel like my life is in danger when I try to LFB. Maybe I'll try doing it on iRacing or Forza. Anyone had any luck with that?
01-09-2017, 01:58 PM
#30
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Surprised at so many people saying how easy it is. I just can't modulate the pressure correctly. For me my brain interprets left foot braking as "on" or "off". I wind up locking up. Took me a while to get heel toe down so maybe I'm just not coordinated.
Seriously, I feel like my life is in danger when I try to LFB. Maybe I'll try doing it on iRacing or Forza. Anyone had any luck with that?
Seriously, I feel like my life is in danger when I try to LFB. Maybe I'll try doing it on iRacing or Forza. Anyone had any luck with that?
For iRacing, I think the lack of realism in my G27 pedal set is probably why it has been successful; all of the benefits of not losing time going from pedal to pedal with little to no downside of brake pressure issues given the poor granularity of the brake pedal signal for my particular setup.