J_Kapp

Can someone please provide insight into what the average annual operating costs are for a spec 944 or similar vehicle. I am looking for an entry point into racing, and I think this may be a more "affordable" avenue.

thanks

M758

here is my 944 spec cost guide.



Unfortunalty the cost of a set of tires is more than 552 these days. We used 225/50 R15 RA-1's and despite being a low cost good wearing tire they are the biggest cost driver.

Potomac-Greg

Joe:

That's cheap stuff. One thing that always needs to be factored in is major item repair. It's unpredictable, but it can be very expensive. A trashed #2 main bearing can be a $200 to $2,000 expense depending on how quickly you catch it, and how much work you can do yourself. The ability to DIY is a huge cost factor since a Porsche tech is going to charge $100/hour on a 944 or a GT3.

M758

That cost sheet is mostly DIY. I rod bearings can by DIY for much less than what is shown above (the parts are maybe $100) with fresh pan gasket and rod nuts. So the $600 includes some labor cost. I did not included alignments since those are very hit or miss. One guy like to do it often and has a shop do it. I do mine may be once a year and do it myself for zero $$$.

One of the big things when it comes to 944 spec rules is that we want to make sure these car can be competitively built and maintained at home by a somewhat competant shade tree mechanic. Of course not everyone will do that, but every little bit helps. My 944 spec has never seen a "shop" since 2003. An then it was for baseline dyno run and baseline alignment. It has been all DIY since then. The only "work" have done is my tire guy mounts my tires and I have guy who does head work.

TR6

I was very interested in 944spec also while looking for the cheapest route to racing a Porsche. What size tires and wheels do you run? How often do you do the belts, rollers, etc, and what's involved in that? The cost if hired out? What's a clutch replacement cost if you hire it out (for those that can't or won't do all of their own wrenching)? I may still look into going spec 944 at some point but was quite honestly a little worried about these older 944 engines holding up to the abuse of racing.

Potomac-Greg

Tires and wheels are very similar to Spec Miata. 15" wheels, and tires between 205s and 225s. There are actually a few formulas you can follow to get into 944 Cup, and some formulas allow bigger wheels.

Belts/rollers are a 30,000 mile scheduled event. Depending on your local hourly rate, it's a $800 - $1,200 job if you do not do it yourself. But a car used just for racing is not going to rack up 30,000 miles very quickly. I can't say I've ever heard of a timing belt failure.

Clutch is another $1,200 item -- all labor b/c it's a tedious job. But again, if you have a good, fresh clutch, it should not fail for a good long time.

Engine failure due to age - There is the dreaded #2 bearing vulnerability. Apparently oil starvation kills THIS bearing. And if not caught early, other things get destroyed too. There are "fixes" that range from keeping oil topped up, to oil baffles in the pan, to preventive replacement. Nobody knows what works b/c the data is anecdotal. But it is a WAY understressed motor even when racing.

Other failures include the steering rack and R&P gear in the transaxle. But there are a LOT of salvage and rebuilt parts floating around. I once had a transmission failure mis-diagnosis and did some quick research and was able to find a half-doze 944 transaxles available for $COME AND GET IT, to $2,500 for a reman.

Cory M

This depends on several factors, I think you need to specify:

Number of race weekends per year, number of sessions per "weekend"

Typical entry fee per "weekend"

Level of competition: is your goal to learn and have fun or win at all costs?

How much work you can do yourself versus paying a shop

Some guys do everything themselves and run on tires pulled from a dumpster, others pay someone else to do everything from transporting the car to checking tire pressures and buy new tires every weekend. Answer the above questions and use Joe's info as a reference, you should be able to come up with an estimate.

M758

Tires

225/50 R15 Toyo RA-1. - expect similar life and performance to SM 205's

Wheels = Stock 15x7 cookie cutters or phone dials = These cost around $50-75 each used. No other wheels allowed. The later offset one can bend if you hit someting really hard. The early offset ones seem pretty indestrutable.

Belts, rollers, waterpump etc. - Once mostly. It is a good idea to change all these out before you start racing the car. Since belts last 30k or 5 years that is alot of racing. Belt failures are non issues on racing cars. I have run for 10 years with no belt covers and can inspect/retension my belts in between run groups if needed. I can even change belts at the track and have changed a roller here and there. Mostly because was too cheap to change them all at once. I keep a couple used spaces just incase one makes too much noise. Remember unlike street cars the hood is open alot you noice odd noises.

Clutch - Do the clutch once and it should last for years. I had clutch fail after 5 years of hard racing. Wear surfaces looke near new, but the spring center broke. It was a stock spring centerd sachs clutch. I did the clutch at home and re-used the pressure plate. Some guys can break clutches sooner, but that is due to bad gear changes.

A large percentage of us do the work ourselves. The key to moderating costs in many respects is not paying shop labor rates. We also have a few guys doing repairs at home for other racers for pennies on the dollar. In arizona if something breaks at the track you will have 5-6 guys over to help out offering parts, tools and labor to get you back running.

As for engines standing up.. they hold up very well. Remember the blocks can handle 350 wheel hp in 944 Turbo race cars. We run 130-135 whp. I have run an 84 motor that I rebuilt at home, had the head clean and flattened for $200 and then raced for 5 years and 80-90 races. The motor started out with 147k on it and the bores were untouched. I even ran the same piston rings. The reason for the rebuild was severe coolant mixing either from bad seals or blown headgasket. In any event once cleaned and rebuilt with fresh bearings the motor ran great. It is current out of the as I need to refresh the head. Carbon build up is causing a couple leaky valves so it is down on power. So that motor will get new bearings and a cleaned head and got back in action.

The 944 spec turns in to a solid tough race car. The reason is stock power, light weight and small not so sticky rubber. The only thing that can slow a car down is 20 years of bad maintenance on the donor car. A cheap $500 porsche is often beat to hell and that has it is issues. Once sorted it can be a great reliable race car. Most guys chose not to replace everythign however as that add alot of cost. Most guys fix what is clearly bad and run on orignal parts long as possible. When guys replace parts used parts are good since they prices are so much lower. Alot of guys have parts cars and use them to cut costs. I pulled a set of rusted rear rotors off a parts car to use on my race car. These thing last 3+ years and saved me lost of money vs new. They work just fine too.

Again what makes the class afordable is how many stock parts can be used both new and used. The cars are in general understressed so we can flog them hard. Their only downside is age. I just had to replace my DME harness as the age combined with heat and dryness causes some probelms. I still may try to fix it, but it was easy to swap one with parts car.

The only weak point is the number 2 bearing. If you are not careful with oil it can spin. Best case you need change the bearigs. Worse case you have junked block with hole out the side. Even so used engines can be had for $1000 running condition. However I recommend fresh main and rod bearings if you take the engine out of the car as a precaution.

gstiper77

Costs are directly proportional to how much you can do to the car and how much you have to have a shop do. The numbers posted by Joe look pretty good, but you never know what can happen in a season that leads to an unexpected expense. I needed my transmission rebuilt after it started grinding in third gear and that cost over $2k. I had a torn CV boot and had to have the bearings repacked and the boot replaced.

Addditionally, in the southeast, we run traditional road courses like Road Atlanta mixed in with visits to places like Charlotte Motor Speedway, which requires a totally different setup on your car. Plan on a few hundred bucks each time you change the setup. Again, if you can do these things yourself, you can save yourself a lot of money. If not, factor into your budget some set up costs and some unexpected expenses.

All in all though, for entry racing it doesnt get much better than a 944. By doing Spec 944, you avoid all of the other costs associated with running your 944 in GTS or some other race series that allows modifications. I have already started down the slippery slope of lightweight bumpers, lightweight sunroof, etc, etc., because in the southeast, 944 Spec doesnt exist for all intents and purposes. At least 944 Spec keeps a lid on all "those" expenses.

DanR

Hi Joe,

I think you may be understating the cost a little when you add in things like service items (spark plugs, wires, filters etc) alignment a couple of times a year, wear and tear items like wheel bearings, CV joints etc etc which all add up. When we add tires in and travel costs etc I think we would all be surprised at how much it costs per day! (evon to do it on the cheap)

M758

That is correct. Estimates are very hard to get accurate since I race different from other guys. For example I never flush my brake fluid, but I do a flush every morning. I know many guys that don't bother. I also rotate my tires aroud the car every track day as well since most track puts more wear on one corner of the car. Rotating evens up that wear. I hate wearing out one tire in a set and using the same tire/wheel on all 4 corners makes it easy to rotate.

Some guys like to flip the tire on rim. I never had issuse with wear down the outside shoulders have never flipped a tire.

There is one guy that likes to have shop align the car before each race. If that makes him happy great. There times that the car has never been touched since I loaded up at the track the month before.

Also a big cost is how you get to the track. Some guy sdrive the car to the event. Others bring a 40 motor home and stacker trailer. Costs are really different, but on track performance goes to the best driver not the biggest hauler.

In the end what makes the class work is that you can complete on modest budget. You do need to invest in allowed supension mods and will need to invest the time to learn how to adujust the suspension to make it fast. You will need to put some effort in getting to min weigth. If you are a bigger gut it will take more work. You will need to invest in tires when the cycle out. Figure two sets per season, but you really need to have 3 sets. As you always want two sets you run at any one time just incase you damage a tire or want to run a set to the very end. I have 3 set of wheels and never show-up without at least 2 race worth sets of tires. Even so I go through 2 sets in a season.

At then end of the day you need not spend $$$$$ to win in this class. You don't need to have pro-buit anything to get the job done. You can't buy your way to the front either. What wins races in this class is being a good driver and being smart about prep. Smart means putting time/money/effort into what makes you and the car fast.

The other part of 944 spec that is great is that you never race alone. All the other 944 spec guys are willing to help out so that you make it on track and have a good time. When problem do come up you get people to help. Last year at nationals one guy lost a motor in the last lap of the qualfying race the afternoon before the championship race. The next day he had great mid pack finish in the championship race after picking up used motor from another racer and having 5-8 other 944 guys helping swap it out that night. The goal is keep guys on track as we are the for the fun. Winning fine and dandy, but racing hard and clean is where it is at.

M758

944 spec does not exist in the south east because it takes guys to build to and race to that spec. I don't mean to canabalize other series, but the idea of 944 spec is control the costs while providing the same fun. If you have other guys racing 944's around you may want to ask if they are willing to downgrade the car a bit to lower operating costs . Most of the time I see guys that do down great and sell off used "go fast" parts and replace with spec legal parts and put cash in their pockets. Something to consider.

M758

Travel costs are not included. Never have been and really can't be since we all live different distances from our tracks. I live 55 miles from my two main tracks. What point it to give you my travel costs?

As for CV joints wheel bearings.. etc... wear and tear is minimal. I have run on 20 year old front wheel bearings for years. Even so the are not hard swap. Rear wheels bearing are from 1987 and never changed. Never an issue. CV joints can fail, but the only issue is torn boots. I have spare assembly made up of some used CV joints that I rebuilt and some old boots. Spark plugs? $2 each as I get bosch coppers and $10 set I have a hard time even worring about them.

Point is the 944 NA is very easy on consumables. Consider that many of these parts are the same as on the 944 turbo. Then consider how much less hp, weight and tire we run in 944 spec.

TR6

How do the laptimes compare to spec miata? I would think they would be a little faster.

I haven't seen many used spec 944 cars advertised on RL for sale. Or maybe I just don't know where they are advertised. What is the going price for a decent turn-key car and where do people list them for sale?

One advantage of 944 over spec miata is that spec miata has turned into an arm$ race. In spec miata, if you want to be at the front, you need to budget for a $6K pro built motor (which I haven't done).

A drawback to 944 in my region is there are very few racing right now whereas spec miata fields are quite large.

M758

Lap times are very compareable. Miata's are fast especially at the pointy end of the grid. The 944 has more hp and higher top speed, but the lighter weight of the miata makes up for the hp. In the end a good driver in 944 will run circles around poor driver in a miata. It can also happen the other way too so I would really call lap times a wash.

Not many 944 spec cars are sold on rennlist. Most are sold on NASAforums.com or 944spec.org. I have about 4-5 cars for sale in arizona at about 7 to 9k. These are turn key log book race cars. Most are from the SCCA version of the class and that means some need few changes. The SCCA prep was little more liberal. It is a long story as to why there even is an SCCA prep (goes to back to 2002) and it would bore you hear about it. Anyway there are not many complete cars in your area, but growth it is coming.