agio

Greg,
Another question for you and any other instructor who do take students out: when you do take the students out, what safety gear are you, the driver, utilizing and what is the student utilizing? Are they equal? Do you use a harnass; HANS device; track seat, etc? If so, is your student equally secured? If yes, OK. If no, then what do you do? Not use your full safety gear? Equalize the gear by, say, not using your harnass so that you and the student are equal?

M758

My race car has a another racing seat & harness on the passenger's side. The belts and seat are not the same model, but mounted just as I would mount the gear on my side. The only difference is the pass side does not have a window net. I wear my full gear (fire suit, HANS) when ever I track drive or even instruct. (obviously stock belts in a student's car makes the HANS useless, but I always wear the fire suit as nearly all the time I instruct also have my car at the track too. I think once I instructed without a firesuit since I left my race car home and just brought a street car.) Of course most students don't have a fire suit or HANS, but I am not going to take mine off just because they don't have one.

Greg Fishman

Agio,
My guess is that no matter what I say it will be a wrong answer but here goes.
My 993 that I instructed in was a full tilt race car with EQUAL safety equipment on both the passenger and driver's side. For most DE's I would not use a fire suit, but always used the harness. Most novice DE students did not have a HANS device and honestly I didn't use mine most of the time during a DE. But when I was going out by myself and was probably going to be pushing the car (open lapping days or instructor only sessions) I would wear a fire suit and a HANS.

sjanes

My car has equal restraints (seats, belts) on both sides. I have an Isaac H&N which I use.

Larry Herman

Equal restraints? That's a whole 'nother thread. I have a full containment racing seat and 7 point belts for me, and the same quality 5 point belts and non-containment racing seat for a passenger. Probably equal enough for a DE. I don't pass in the esses or on the outside of the Toe of the boot in DEs.

TD in DC

wimp

Larry Herman

And if I really thought about it, I probably wouldn't do it in races either, but that part of my brain tends to get turned off when the green flag flys.

mitch236

Personally, I don't think Racing suits or HANS devices fall under the equal restraint rule. They are personal safety items and I never drive my car without my HANS. Otherwise, I have almost equal restraints (I have a full containment seat and the passenger does not).

kurt M

Could not have said it better myself and follow the same mind set when in the right or left seat with a student in the car, his or mine. This is spot on in many ways. 0.0 Green student has a hard time seeing the ground much less the corner or flag station when starting out on a new track. Some laps with instructor driving let the student see the track and hear the instructor without "Oh $h!+ I am on a race track" tunnel vision. This also lets me feel the car and be sure that the car that I AM RIDING IN feels OK. This also lets me know what the tires and brakes feel like. I size up the driver via a 10 to 20 min pre track interview and verbal overview of the days plan. I want to size up the car a little too.

I get my rock off by chasing 911s down with a pushrod 912 now and then, not brain freezing 0.0 Greens.

As to safety gear. Use what ya' brung. Let's not get silly here. This could be taken to absurdem infinitum real quick. My helmet is only a M2 2000, yours was $1000 and half the weight. Yours is better so our gear is not the same? f it meets the requirement of the program you have the right to use it.

Palting

OK. I'll stick my neck out. Again .

I realize I'm not an instructor, so I may be way out of line here. I'm just trying to inject a studen'ts perpective to the discussion.. But I think forcing the student to let you drive their car is giving the novice "green" driver and their instructors way too little credit. The average DE student has been driving for at least several years, right? They are drivng their cars, so they don't want to mess it up, I assume. They may have tunnel vision, may not know the line, won't remember or can't see the flag stations. BUT, the instructor is in absolute control, isn't he? The instructor decides the speed, and what particular lessons need to be learned sequentially before further lessons are given. The instructor can have the student drive only as fast as the student would normally drive on the street until the instructor feels comfortable enough that he/she has taught the student enough to drive faster. For example, the instructor can teach the line and flag stations ONLY. That gives the student one bite at the apple. If, and only if he learns that will the instructor teach braking points and whatever else is next in line that the instructor wants to teach. That gives the student one more bite at the apple. As a driver, the student will learn faster and more effectively than if he was a passenger. If the student REALY doesn't get it, then, maybe, suggest showing it to him. I have a feeling he will be frustrated enought to ask you to do so by then, anyway.

sparks259

my .02 on this " why is this such a ticklish" subjust.
as i am a red (highest) run group driver, nnjr and national de instructor, some reasons why we ask to drive students car are these; one to see if anything has mechanically changed on the car since it was tech'd. teching routinely occurs a week to ten days prior to the event, just about anything can happen in that interim period.
next, the instructor can talk the student around the course pointing out markers, flag stations and the like.
additionaly, and especially if this is the students first time on track, i can't tell you how many times after driving the students car, when i ask " are you ready?" the answer is " take the car around again, i just want to be sure".
again, just my .02.

MJSpeed

Every region is different...so is every car. One must understand what each car can do, especially at the speed that you want the student to go... It also provides for reference points. What Larry said summizes a lot of our (instructors) sentiments.

Any abuse of or flogging of a students car will reward the instructor with the priviledge to explain to the DE Chairman and myself WTF is going on!

Larry Herman

I'm not sure if you were responding to me, but I will clarify my position some more. I am referring to a green student, one who probably has less than 6 events under their belts, and has not been to this particular track before. When you explain what you want to do, universally all of these students prefer to be shown the track for the first time. The value of being shown those first couple of laps is enormous.

Once a student moves to blue, or has prior experience at that track, the value of the instructor drive diminishes, and usually is not offered. I have had blue students who "know" ask for the 2 lap drive because they were unfamiliar with the track.

I think that it is quite important, and I guess that if I had a student that was so resistant to anyone else driving their car then I would take them out slowly in mine, but that would lose the value of deciding on gear selection, and braking points, and them feeling how their car should be driven. And I guess that I would spend a lot of time in the pits that first session discussing their goals and what they expected to get out of the weekend.

smankow

I only had one instructor ask to take me around the track in my car and, knowing the instructor's ability and reputation, I gladly accepted. After all, it was only my 2nd event. He drove 2 or 3 laps at the speeds that green student's would be driving (and at the same speed that other instructors and drivers were going) and showed the utmost respect for my car. During these laps, he pointed out the basic info about the track, including flag stations, car position, brake zones, etc.

Rest assured that once I got behind the wheel, I still managed to "get lost" in the boot at WGI But, after a few sessions, it all came together. I passed a few cars, learned a lot and had the time of my life. After all, WG was the first "real" track that I'd been to. Pocono North doesn't count.

and to all of you instructors, you're the best

cchan

I have primarily done DE's with BMWCCA on the west coast, where it is mandatory for the instructor to drive the student's car for the first few laps on the first day. (Note - in BMWCCA, instructors are mandatory for all students until signed off to drive solo) As a high intermediate student, I do not mind it at all, since they are moderate speed recon laps. 1. Car, tires, and brain need warm up anyway 2. Even if I know the track and line well, I think it is easier to spot course changes since my last visit (resurfacing, curbs, ref points, run off, flag stations, etc) from the passenger seat. 3. Gives some extra time to warm up with the instructor and discuss what I think I need to work on that day. BWMCCA is probably the most conservative group, but it works for me as I am pretty conservative about safety.

With other groups, I can understand that instructors may not want the liability of driving a student's car too, and would rather drive their own. Switching cars takes more time than switching seats in the hot pit, but it can work if it has too.