When to Take the Next Plunge Into DE Equipment???
10-12-2005, 01:14 AM
#1
Race Car
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When to Take the Next Plunge Into DE Equipment???
At the end of a recent DE event, my instructor seriously recommended that I get track tires, harnesses, and maybe even racing seats.
I only have 9 track days of experience. I know this stuff would be a lot of fun, but, realistically, what is the big hurry? Is it normal to "need" this stuff so soon?
I am not out for racing. I would like to someday become an instructor myself. With street tires, I find myself having to hold on a bit. Track tires would be fun but would probably make a harness a necessity. Seats? I don't know, maybe for better lateral support but definitely better harness fitment for safety. Seems like a slippery slope lined with money that I may or may not have.
And yes, I am sure that my instructor was not a vendor.
Is this for real? How do you know when you really "need" stuff for DE?
Thanks!
I only have 9 track days of experience. I know this stuff would be a lot of fun, but, realistically, what is the big hurry? Is it normal to "need" this stuff so soon?
I am not out for racing. I would like to someday become an instructor myself. With street tires, I find myself having to hold on a bit. Track tires would be fun but would probably make a harness a necessity. Seats? I don't know, maybe for better lateral support but definitely better harness fitment for safety. Seems like a slippery slope lined with money that I may or may not have.
And yes, I am sure that my instructor was not a vendor.
Is this for real? How do you know when you really "need" stuff for DE?
Thanks!
10-12-2005, 01:21 AM
#2
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I agree with most of what he said except for the track tires...you are fine on street tires until you exceed their capabilities all of the time. However, as far as harnesses, racing seats, and roll bar..I'd highly recommend them all of the time....it's about safety in addition to making it easier to drive hard.
Things can happen and at the speed we go on the track, you can do some serious damage to your car and yourself...best to protect yourself at all times...the car can be replaced.
Things can happen and at the speed we go on the track, you can do some serious damage to your car and yourself...best to protect yourself at all times...the car can be replaced.
10-12-2005, 02:18 AM
#3
Race Car
I agree with Kim. Harnesses and seats: yes. Track tires: no.
Harnesses and seats make your car safer, primarily, and also make you better able to control the car, since you're not having to fight to keep positioned in the car.
Track tires lower your lap times, pure and simple. They don't make you a better driver, and they don't make your car faster. They communicate less to the driver, and have a smaller 'window' of grip -- they don't break loose as gradually as street tires and as a result you don't get the same amount of practice on the edge of the car's handling.
They also cost an arm and a leg compared to street tires. I can track a set of street tires for a dozen events, and also use them for all my street driving. With Hoosiers, I get three weekends (maybe four if I'm stingy with them), and my car's pretty light.
Harnesses and seats make your car safer, primarily, and also make you better able to control the car, since you're not having to fight to keep positioned in the car.
Track tires lower your lap times, pure and simple. They don't make you a better driver, and they don't make your car faster. They communicate less to the driver, and have a smaller 'window' of grip -- they don't break loose as gradually as street tires and as a result you don't get the same amount of practice on the edge of the car's handling.
They also cost an arm and a leg compared to street tires. I can track a set of street tires for a dozen events, and also use them for all my street driving. With Hoosiers, I get three weekends (maybe four if I'm stingy with them), and my car's pretty light.
10-12-2005, 02:37 AM
#4
I'm not sure I always agree. The other day I had a student in a wrx going sideways with huge tire noise, consistently at every corner. He was clearly limited by traction. At that point I think it is fair to recommend some R compound tires.
Of course, I agree, that a rollbar, 6 pt harness and fire system are more important. But I think that some intermediate drivers can reach a point where they cannot progress with street tires.
AW
Of course, I agree, that a rollbar, 6 pt harness and fire system are more important. But I think that some intermediate drivers can reach a point where they cannot progress with street tires.
AW
10-12-2005, 08:47 AM
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It is a slippery, slippery slope. The faster you go, the more mods, at least in the safety arena you'll need. First, harnesses with stock seats can do more harm from a safety point than good. There are some systems that allow this, but typically harnesses require guide holes in the seats. Second, as you strap yourself in more tightly with 5/6 pts, (Schroth ASM 4pts might be a possiblity) you'll inevitably wind up needing to consider a Hans of some sort. You don't say what you're driving, but if it has an airbag, you'll need to consider whether you want to disable it or not.
The big problem with what you have now is that street seats and belts are designed for the types of situation you encounter on the street. I recall driving my 996 at LCMT a few years ago through the carousel and upon review of the video my left hand is at twelve while my right is at three, with my head leaning into the frame, all in an effort to brace myself against the corner. As Jack points out, you really can't drive very well if you head isn't upright; as a result seats can be the single biggest performance improvement you can make. OTOH, just be aware that these mods need to be done with regard to safety. Once you start messing about with what the manufacturer intended, you need to do it in a systematic and well considered way.
As to track tires, I'd say it depends on which track tires you're talking about. They are not all equal. Showing up on full depth Toyos, Dunlops or Yokos IMO isn't that radical a shift from a high performance street tire. Non-treaded virtual slick style R-Compounds are a different matter. At this juncture, it seems silly to even think about Hoosiers, Avons, Cups or Kumho 710s for example, although at my last event at the Glen, I did see a guy in a new 997 in the green run group with Hoosiers on. Seem foolish to me, particularly as you buy the armco there, but to each his own.
In the end, we all come to this juncture. Is DE about learning how to drive our street car better or is it more about learning how to drive well enough to achieve near race speeds on track. There are a lot of complex tradeoffs involved. Most of us wind up choosing the latter as its a bigger challenge, but it is a far more expensive toll road to travel on.
The big problem with what you have now is that street seats and belts are designed for the types of situation you encounter on the street. I recall driving my 996 at LCMT a few years ago through the carousel and upon review of the video my left hand is at twelve while my right is at three, with my head leaning into the frame, all in an effort to brace myself against the corner. As Jack points out, you really can't drive very well if you head isn't upright; as a result seats can be the single biggest performance improvement you can make. OTOH, just be aware that these mods need to be done with regard to safety. Once you start messing about with what the manufacturer intended, you need to do it in a systematic and well considered way.
As to track tires, I'd say it depends on which track tires you're talking about. They are not all equal. Showing up on full depth Toyos, Dunlops or Yokos IMO isn't that radical a shift from a high performance street tire. Non-treaded virtual slick style R-Compounds are a different matter. At this juncture, it seems silly to even think about Hoosiers, Avons, Cups or Kumho 710s for example, although at my last event at the Glen, I did see a guy in a new 997 in the green run group with Hoosiers on. Seem foolish to me, particularly as you buy the armco there, but to each his own.
In the end, we all come to this juncture. Is DE about learning how to drive our street car better or is it more about learning how to drive well enough to achieve near race speeds on track. There are a lot of complex tradeoffs involved. Most of us wind up choosing the latter as its a bigger challenge, but it is a far more expensive toll road to travel on.
10-12-2005, 09:45 AM
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Hey James;
The guys have you pretty well covered here. First off, no one should ever feel foolish or like they are over-stepping when contemplating increased safety. Having said that, you need to know that none of this stuff is easy to get done right, as RJ said. You have to know a lot, or find someone who does, to get it done right. That is the hard part!
You don't "need" any of that stuff, but if you get to the point where your safety or fun factor is limited by concentration or grip, then you need to think about upgrading.
Until then, or if you are not willing to or cannot afford upgrade(s), you should consciously drive within the limit of what you have. Man people do that, and still drive swiftly and have fun. Driving well and having fun is quite the point, after all.
The guys have you pretty well covered here. First off, no one should ever feel foolish or like they are over-stepping when contemplating increased safety. Having said that, you need to know that none of this stuff is easy to get done right, as RJ said. You have to know a lot, or find someone who does, to get it done right. That is the hard part!
You don't "need" any of that stuff, but if you get to the point where your safety or fun factor is limited by concentration or grip, then you need to think about upgrading.
Until then, or if you are not willing to or cannot afford upgrade(s), you should consciously drive within the limit of what you have. Man people do that, and still drive swiftly and have fun. Driving well and having fun is quite the point, after all.
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10-12-2005, 10:32 AM
#8
Race Car
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Thanks for your comments.
I am driving my 1986 928 (no airbag) that I have enjoyed for over a decade and would like to keep it for years to come. However, I just have to wonder if a single purpose track car (a gutted 944, for example) is the only right direction to proceed in.
My fear is the minute I put race seats in my car is the minute it is no longer truly a street GT car. My car will then be doomed to stripping and track prep. (Not saying that is not a worthy fate)
Last weekend I used cheap street tires: Falken 451 Betas. I had a good time with them - they performed better than I had expected. In quite a few turns I found myself (instructor too) bracing and hanging on because the seats and stock belts weren't keeping us snugly in place. I manage to control the car fine, but definitely recognize the potential for both safety and further skill development if I were more securely fastened in.
I don't really have room for another car. I almost do not have room to keep 2 sets of seats.
It sounds like race seats are the normal progression. Perhaps a bit of denial on my part - my leather seats are still in really good shape.... I haven't exceeded 115mph at the CMP track (a touch of rationalization) .... Maybe if I ran on cheaper street tires that would help keep me in my seat (OK, now that is just plain stupid)...
I have very mixed feelings about all of this. You lucky fellows with the GT3s and the dedicated track prepared cars have it made. All I want to do is have a whole lot of fun, but now I gotta make some compromises. Not sure my wife is ready for the money that is about to be spent here...
I am driving my 1986 928 (no airbag) that I have enjoyed for over a decade and would like to keep it for years to come. However, I just have to wonder if a single purpose track car (a gutted 944, for example) is the only right direction to proceed in.
My fear is the minute I put race seats in my car is the minute it is no longer truly a street GT car. My car will then be doomed to stripping and track prep. (Not saying that is not a worthy fate)
Last weekend I used cheap street tires: Falken 451 Betas. I had a good time with them - they performed better than I had expected. In quite a few turns I found myself (instructor too) bracing and hanging on because the seats and stock belts weren't keeping us snugly in place. I manage to control the car fine, but definitely recognize the potential for both safety and further skill development if I were more securely fastened in.
I don't really have room for another car. I almost do not have room to keep 2 sets of seats.
It sounds like race seats are the normal progression. Perhaps a bit of denial on my part - my leather seats are still in really good shape.... I haven't exceeded 115mph at the CMP track (a touch of rationalization) .... Maybe if I ran on cheaper street tires that would help keep me in my seat (OK, now that is just plain stupid)...
I have very mixed feelings about all of this. You lucky fellows with the GT3s and the dedicated track prepared cars have it made. All I want to do is have a whole lot of fun, but now I gotta make some compromises. Not sure my wife is ready for the money that is about to be spent here...
10-12-2005, 10:46 AM
#9
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I installed a harness and race seat after my first DE. I will never drive on the track again without a harness. Total cost was just under $2,000 for a pair of Recaro seats and Schroth harness.
10-12-2005, 10:55 AM
#10
Race Car
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Hey James;
Until then, or if you are not willing to or cannot afford upgrade(s), you should consciously drive within the limit of what you have. Man people do that, and still drive swiftly and have fun. Driving well and having fun is quite the point, after all.
Until then, or if you are not willing to or cannot afford upgrade(s), you should consciously drive within the limit of what you have. Man people do that, and still drive swiftly and have fun. Driving well and having fun is quite the point, after all.
You may be onto something. Fast is fun, no doubt, but improving is a big part of the enjoyment for me. If I toned things down, I could get more events out of a set of tires, but will not have developed the experience that would, hopefully someday, make me a good instructor.
I feel compelled to expand my skills. Not push the envelope, but definitely nudge the envelope along a little at a time. I think my nudging has gotten me to about the point of needing, at a minimum a velcro seat cover. I am certain that if I go to an event at a track that I have never been to before, the "need" for stuff will not be present. I will be learning the track, not maxing out the tires, and certainly not hanging on for dear life. Geez, I am not that good.
Any thoughts on sampling several other tracks to keep things toned down driving and equipment-wise before jumping in with the DE safety and performance essentials that have been recommended?
Thanks for your responses. You guys are great!
10-12-2005, 10:57 AM
#11
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You already have the helmet, so consider a nomex suit and gloves.
You can enter the glove area by buying all leather police search gloves. They are not fire resisitant but will allow you to pick up sharp or hot items and the leather prevents slipping when they get wet from your hands sweating. Thin and they get you used to wearing something if you are not used to it! You'll very soon not notice you are wearing gloves as you continue to concentrate on your driving!!! They are lots better then nothing!!
Better choice and still inexpensive are Nomex pilot gloves. Can get them at Army surplus or police supply stores (SWAT guys use black ones).
Best choice....Nomex drivers gloves. Purpose made with many choices.
Drivers suit???? Expensive but worth the protection when you need it! Many choices...ie two/three layer, new technology..etc.
With proper care they will last a long time. It turns out to be really cheap safety. You may never needs the protection, but.......if you do, it is too late to start picking out the correct suit!! Look this winter when the season is over!
Then nomex shoes and socks.
Hey, there is a reason they require this stuff for racers!!
You can enter the glove area by buying all leather police search gloves. They are not fire resisitant but will allow you to pick up sharp or hot items and the leather prevents slipping when they get wet from your hands sweating. Thin and they get you used to wearing something if you are not used to it! You'll very soon not notice you are wearing gloves as you continue to concentrate on your driving!!! They are lots better then nothing!!
Better choice and still inexpensive are Nomex pilot gloves. Can get them at Army surplus or police supply stores (SWAT guys use black ones).
Best choice....Nomex drivers gloves. Purpose made with many choices.
Drivers suit???? Expensive but worth the protection when you need it! Many choices...ie two/three layer, new technology..etc.
With proper care they will last a long time. It turns out to be really cheap safety. You may never needs the protection, but.......if you do, it is too late to start picking out the correct suit!! Look this winter when the season is over!
Then nomex shoes and socks.
Hey, there is a reason they require this stuff for racers!!
10-12-2005, 11:04 AM
#12
Race Car
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Hacker-Pschorr
I installed a harness and race seat after my first DE. I will never drive on the track again without a harness. Total cost was just under $2,000 for a pair of Recaro seats and Schroth harness.
I have been hanging onto the "all you need is a helmet" line for too long.
What would you do if you were me? Sell my leather seats and make race seats permanent? Part of me says "yuck" and part of me says "EXCELLENT!"
I know recaros are very nice. Tan is the only color seat that works for my brown interior, aesthetically speaking. Race Seat <> Date Car.
Thanks and Peace!
10-12-2005, 11:12 AM
#13
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james, it's a never ending slippery slope.
you don't need dedicated stripped out 944 track car unless you plan to do 15 or even more days per year. if you do that many days, perhaps it's best to have another car. i tried to use a dual purpose car for a long time. but the more i drive, the stiffer the suspension and more mods i needed. suddenly the car isn't all that great for street anymore.
you don't need dedicated stripped out 944 track car unless you plan to do 15 or even more days per year. if you do that many days, perhaps it's best to have another car. i tried to use a dual purpose car for a long time. but the more i drive, the stiffer the suspension and more mods i needed. suddenly the car isn't all that great for street anymore.
10-12-2005, 11:35 AM
#14
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Originally Posted by mooty
james, it's a never ending slippery slope.
you don't need dedicated stripped out 944 track car unless you plan to do 15 or even more days per year. if you do that many days, perhaps it's best to have another car. i tried to use a dual purpose car for a long time. but the more i drive, the stiffer the suspension and more mods i needed. suddenly the car isn't all that great for street anymore.
you don't need dedicated stripped out 944 track car unless you plan to do 15 or even more days per year. if you do that many days, perhaps it's best to have another car. i tried to use a dual purpose car for a long time. but the more i drive, the stiffer the suspension and more mods i needed. suddenly the car isn't all that great for street anymore.
If I switched to a stripped track car, I would probably be lured into racing. That would not be a popular idea on the homefront.
How many people still drive only modestly prepped cars at DEs that have loads of track experience (more than two dozen events)? A couple of events ago, I met a nice fellow that DE'd a Boxter until he purchased a Ferrari 550 M. He takes the Ferrari out now. You know he will not be putting in a roll cage, etc. Just curious.
Thanks!
10-12-2005, 11:48 AM
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BTW - For most cars it is not that hard to swap in/out racing seats...usually just 4-6 bolts and wiring connector.
I put a roll bar, seats, and harnesses into my car after the first 3 trackweekends on advice from an instructor.
Here's the deal...no matter how easy you think you're taking it, all it takes is going off sideways one time, hit a rut and flip your car...me...I'd rather have whatever extra safety equipment I can put into the car...
I put a roll bar, seats, and harnesses into my car after the first 3 trackweekends on advice from an instructor.
Here's the deal...no matter how easy you think you're taking it, all it takes is going off sideways one time, hit a rut and flip your car...me...I'd rather have whatever extra safety equipment I can put into the car...