maomao911

I don't think Porsche needs a competitor with the 458 as it has already got that covered with the Turbo S or GT3. Both performs very close to the 458. What Porsche can do is to make a competitor to the F12, Aventador, etc, at the premium super car range. They can make a car just as fast as the competition while offering at least a $50k discount in MSRP. But it all comes down to how Porsche view their brand strength. I think it will be a hard for them to sell a volume super car at the 300k range when they also make mid size SUVs and diesel sedans...

brake dust

Agree 100% with this Z356! Just read that the new Vette C7 GTE car is using the C6 engine and drive train. Like Porsche, they are waiting for the new technical regulations from the ACO/FIA. The 960 will become the top line endurance car for Porsche.

Agree that the current 997.2 GT3 prices are artificially high and will start to decline. Believe the 991 GT3 will depreciate even more quickly then the 997.2 GT3 though. The 991 will built in higher numbers and there will be no Le Mans racing providence with the 91a engine.

sechsgang

I already put a deposit down for one...but I hope it just as the RS v8 motor...I dont really want turbos...looks like Ill be upset on that level though as odds are the thing will have FI...oh well.

Zeus

I couldn't agree more. The 960 needs to be in a market segment above the 458 & 12C, perhaps slightly above the F12 & Aventador, yet nowhere near the 918, P1 & LaF. There is a rumor that McLaren will launch a model in the future that is above the 12C, but below the P1. Hmm... Interesting. Here is a link: http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/26/m...p4-12c-and-p1/
I don't think I'd want it in that price range (~600K) but a bit under the CGT's price would do if it had the right formula.

Not sure about wanting it to be a little less money (~50K) discount in MSRP... Porsche always punches above it's weight. I'd rather pay for a finished product being much better engineered than the competition. Lamborghini will soon be making their own SUV, but I see your point about Porsche's other models.

Pertaining to my reponse to maomao911, is there a point in which the production car would be too expensive to replace the 911 in the various racing series?

I'm surprised you first didn't put a deposit down on a possible 4.0 RS version of the 991 - if it were to exist in the future?

Gravs

Launching a 960 would be a marketing challenge and a half for Porsche. The 911 is such a key car. It's a mainstream halo model and I don't think anyone else has one of those. It supports the brand, allowing them to charge top rates from Boxter, Cayenne, Macan etc. 911 sales are supported by the slow historical evolution and the various racing series. Bringing out a 960 would risk that. CGT and 918 are too high price/low volume to undermine 911 but a 960 just might.

But now we have a lot of very good competition in the higher segments (458, 12C, Gallardo replacement, F12, Aventador) Porsche could also suffer if they do nothing. So they will probably do something.

If it were me I would pitch it exactly at Aventador, F12 prices but it should be positioned differently being lighter weight, carbon bodied, more sporting and supported by race series. This also makes sense given 911 has become more comfortable/mainstream and Porsche is re-entering top-level endurance racing.

Z356

"I think it's also interesting to try and understand and anticipate how these cars will be received by tomorrow's history books. Again, I think they will be kinder to the P1, simply because I think it will be a long, long time before any 'regular' supercars will match its level of performance. However, were Porsche to build the mid-engined 458 rival we all know it has planned, and that car was to be propelled in a similar way to the 918, then it's quite possible that it would be nearly as fast and, with the benefit of everything learned on the 918, its chassis could be even more impressive."

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=29516

Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel

Tacet-Conundrum

The reason the La Ferrari looks the way it does is because it wasn't styled by Pinninfarina.

GVA-SFO

IMO, the "960" position problem is much more complex than we can perceive at the first shot.
Porsche come from an era were the 911 had the roles of flagship and provided the main revenue stream.
And this is falling apart !
While the 911 do remain a "perfect compromise car", it has serious difficulty to hold the flag high in race. In my opinion (I just gave up driving 911 as dailly non stop for 30 years), you cannot anymore maintain the lead on tracks with a car that have the engine on the wrong position, and this even if the car is "better" technically" than the others.

But, in the other end, the 911 engine position gives to his owner a fantastic compromise, that the owners of any of R8, 458, 12C, Huracan, ...simply do not have at all.
With a 911, you can drive it everyday, and do 100'000km without any problem (I did that with multiple ones), you can go to Costco, you can fit 2 (TWO) golf bags on the back seats and go, etc, etc...

But, since some time, if you go to the track with it, ..you better watch out in your mirror !

About performances and handling, I think you should just step in at the 12C local dealer and give it real try.
First, try "normal - normal" in the console switches. You will discover that Grand ma can *** (if she is fit enough, ..and wear pants, ..to be seated in the car) can drive it to run errands in the city. Then try "sport - sport"' and then, your mind (of Porsche guy) ..is going to change a bit, (if you have an open mind). and finaly, take your chances on "track -track", to get the best of this beast. Then, you will know what a real thing is.
After that, if you go back right away in your 911, in the first curve you will exit, your brain will say, sh..., my chassis is made out of rubber, and my engine is dead.

Ok, this beast cost two 911, but with these two REAL switches, for this price, You get 3 very differents cars.
...But still, you cannot go to Costco, nor going golfing with a friend with it!

Another story about 911 as track rat: In the past, in a very curvy track, you may had a Lotus Exige on your mirror, but true, in a track were you get speed up seriously, the Exige becomes small in the mirror (in the straight lines). But know, with the lastest breed of Exige (I'm talking about the V6, and i.e.: the "Cup" model), you have more than a good chance that this dam thing will become big in your mirror, ..and end up having the exhaust disapearing on the front of your nose. Particularly, if that Exige (V6) did previouly a "stop for vacation" at a company like Komotec, i.e.: a 6k mod (for a 50hp addition) that gives you a grand total of 410hp, this, in a car that is barely more than One ton on the scale, and, ..cost only about 100 dollars per kilo ! (To be the king of the track.)

Or, for the 911, ..no more the King of the track rats, gone, finished, ciao.

So what to do ? make Cayenne, Macan, and get a lot of Money ?

Well, one decision has been taken : build the 919 and see if "we" can give Audi (and our friend Tom Kristensen with his team) a 24 hours run for the money !) (Yes, you understand well that I'm talking about Le Mans.)
I can only imagine that at the war desk of mother Volkswagen, ..it should not be cool and relax everyday !!!!

So imo, the question of the flagship ..and the sell in qty and drive it everyday, is NOT so easy to "answer".
Would Porsche make another R8 or Huracan inside the same family ?

If I would be at the WD of mother VW, I think I would make a call to retire the Diesel Le Mans car, as well as the R8, and let ("new") son Porsche making his own "R8"' (the 960) and pass the "Le Mans" flag to him, ..this, like they removed V8 and V10 *(and V12) from their fantastic Touareg line, ..to suppress any possible small shadow out the Queen Cayenne run ! (Money is King)

..But, I think, we should keep on mind that the Gallardo, of brother Lambo, just ended a "succesful" 11 years career, ..with a little over 10'000 cars produced !
I do not remember, ..do you know how many 911 have been produced ???
I do not think it is in the same league of cash at all !

Well, if you would like to have my real opinion in this 960 "position story" ?
Quite simple, ..and quite cheap to make : Put the GT3 engine in the Boxster and in the Cayman.
You may call it "960". But for sure, this is not going to be liked by all the non grown potential customers, ..I'm talking about the ones that are only happy when people look at them !
(..Particurlarly now, that when these will park their "exotic hybrid" in the front of a fashion bar, ..this will be in complete silence !!!)

Still, in the mean time, if you want to buy the best Car of the market, imo, the most kept secret is to go to visit Mr. Alois Ruf, ..and simply buy a 3800S

*** May be the real origin of the new model name ?

Z356

Just one question for you, GVA-SFO. What exactly are you drinking when you composed these wonderful long posts? I think a good quality Scotch - maybe an Ardbeg or Lagavulin! Be frank with us.

But back on topic. That is why the internal company nickname for the 960 is the FeFi and it will be arriving sooner than most people think! The Cayman, even with the improved 981 platform, doesn't apparently have a race-proven rear suspension that could manage the power of a gt3 type engine and proved reliable in racing. That is why Porsche doesn't race Caymans. The only ones seriously fooling around with Caymans is Napleton with the limited Interseries. Why bother re-inventing the rear wheels (pardon the pun...I did have a dram of Ardbeg tonight!) of the 981's when you have the 918 chassis available for your engineers to modify, mass produced & create the next big Wunderwaffe! The 960 will give Porsche both a racing & street car success the likes which we have not seen in decades for this marque! You just wait and see.

Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel

GVA-SFO

@z356 :



..If I had a Lagavulin as a drink, ..I would have writen about tires, not cars !
(I have a very good friend that always told me that Lagavulin is made out of a process by smoking old tires, ..to give that particular taste !!!)

I had an oj this morning, ..together with my coffee.

Btw, I did not (could even write never) smoked or sniffed anything either !

For your information, a Ruf 3800S ..IS nothing else than a brand new Boxster (or Cayman) of the last generation, ..fitted with a brand new 3.8l 9A1, with a very good exhaust and a tiny revision of the firmware of the ECU, ..that gives an easy 400hp !
I never drove one ..yet, but had a long talk last week with Alois Ruf, and I can tell you that the rear end of this Ruf made car is doing very well.

This makes altogether a fantastic car, imo much better than a 911' ..for a price in the range of a 991S.
Sure, it is not enough to bite the rear bumber of a 12C (which is a perfect reference as a good "Fefi", ..but to do "that", you need a carbon tub (to keep the weight very low, and be rigid) and, a power plant that can spit more than 600 ponnies (no need to mention that this must be in the right position.)
I do not think that this recipe has any chance to become "the next 911.
Do you really think that Porsche will go this path, ..to sell 15'000 of these during the next 10 years, *..and also stealing business to both brothers (Audi and Lambo) to achieve these sales ?

Imo, if the coup of buying VW some years would have gone through (personally, I'm more than sad that it did not worked out), then I would have say, yes, it is possible. But as per today, ..frankly, I doubt.
Time will tell

ps : imo, it is simply impossible to "mass produce" a carbon chassis like the one of the 918. The only one that seems to have the chance to be produced in "decent" qty, is one made like McLaren did.
I think, it will take some more time to let people realizing ..that McLaren did hit the center of the target ..of the best super sport car.
You can also take note, that their power plant has already the Italian accent (of Modene), thanks to its flat crank !

ps2 : what the hell you were drinking the day you decided to sell your Carrera 2 Coupe ????

Z356

No, your friend is mistaken. It's worse than that. To make Lagavulin, they collect old dogs from all over Scotland, all are renamed 'Pete' or 'Petey', and then....oh, never mind. I can't go into details in this forum, but its a nasty, smokey process which PETA would not approve!

I know the 3800S well enough. I been to Pfaffenhausen and have had lunch there with both Alois & Estonia. It's a wonderful vehicle - the 3800S. By the way, its a brand new Boxster or Cayman body of the present 981 generation. As you probably know, Ruf can buy any 'body-in-white' from Porsche...so that is not a problem. Be interesting to see what happens now that Ruf has entered into a partnership with Gerard Lopez and the Lotus F1 Team. I am very hopeful they'll even be BETTER!

You'll be surprised to know how little cross-buying there is between Porsche folks and Audi R8's & Lamborghini 'Exotics'! Besides, the R8 market is incredibly small, even within the realm of total Audi automobile production! It's more of a 'halo' vehicle. In street form (not LMS Ultra), it's not really suitable for track junkies and Audi doesn't try to market it as such. And when was the last time you saw a Lamborghini at a track event or driver's education meet? That is more uncommon to find at any track than an R8! No, the 960 will find a legion of buyers - both for track use and the street. Neither Lambo nor Audi will protest. You are over dramatizing the VW's control. Piëch loves competition - look who Porsche is taking on this year at the Circuit de la Sarthe! No, the Porsche 960 is not the R8Fighter! It's also not the HuracanFighter! It's the FerrariFighter - meaning whatever Ferrari replaces the 458 Italia in a few years time!

Technically, I never did sell it. But I did take up drinking after it was gone! But that is another sad tale that needs to be told at a bar...over some Pete or Petey Lagavulin!

Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel

.

brake dust

Besides changes to the technical regulations for engines, I expect that carbon fiber tubs will be approved for ACO/FIA GT motorsport in 2016. 960!

GVA-SFO

In theory : Yes, big time.

But : Is this market segment wide enough to support an new entry, i.e.: Porsche, when already two brand of the group (Lambo & Audi) are already present, trying to fight against Ferrari and McLaren ?

Do you think there is enough grass in this pasture to feed all these cows ?
Frankly, I do not know.

The BIG advantage of the 911 (engine in the wrong place) is for example that you can take it everyday, drive your children at the school in the morning, ..and put 2 golf bags in the rear to go golfing in the afternoon.
Have you try to do that with an MP4-12C ? (or with a 458 ?)
Now, for sure, driving a 12C is quite a different experience than driving a 911 !
(IMO, the 12C is the best car that I ever drove.)
But, the use of it, ..is quite different !

dasams

It looks like the FeFi project has been postponed / cancelled. Very disappointing. This info from the 11/25 PCA newsletter and posted at https://autos.yahoo.com/news/porsche...153047454.html
------------
A Porsche competitor to the vaunted Ferrari 458 has been on the docket for years. However, according to new reports, the planning stage might be as far as this sports car ever gets…at least for now.

In a recent interview at the Los Angeles Auto Show, Porsche R&D head Wolfgang Hatz told Australia’s Drive that the eight-cylinder sportscar project – internally known as the 988 and intended to slot below the 918 – hadn’t been scrapped altogether, but rather temporarily postponed.

“We have not finally decided the [start of production], so at the moment we have so many other things to do,” notes Hatz. He adds that immediate projects “to develop some entirely new cars such as the Panamera successor and Cayenne successors and the next-generation of our sports cars” take precedence over the upper range model.

Reports indicate that both the next-generation Cayenne and Panamera will arrive in 2017, giving Porsche engineers little more than two years to finish development. Additionally, Porsche continues to work on new engines, transmissions, and hybrid systems for both its road cars as well as the automaker’s relaunched Le Mans racing program.

At the end of the day, the overall goal remains the same. Porsche is dead set on pushing its annual global production past the 200,000 mark within the coming years, and with production hitting 155,000 vehicles during the 2013 fiscal year (an 8 percent year-over-year jump) – it’s becoming an ever-attainable figure.

Expanding the product lineup with bottom of the range vehicles like the Macan should effectively expedite that process as well. Bolstering the top end of the range might not hurt either, but with a successor to the now five-year-old Ferrari 458 expected within the next few years, the benefits of a mid-engine 458 direct rival look slim.

Z356

No, I think we need to read in between the lines and see what might be going on here...and why they are not saying as much about the 960/988 as you would expect. I think they can't afford to reveal more now...to make sure nobody cancels their expensive 918 orders. But they can't ignore what it's happening to them in competitive gt motorsports. The 960/988 will come sooner than you think. Wait until all 918 Spyders are paid for in full & delivered...then we'll talk. My dos centavos, for what is worth.

For working links to the post you'll read below, go to this thread:

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...l#post11815206

Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel

.