Aolszowy

Yesterday I went to an independent shop to have my oil changed. The mechanic cuts open the filters on all oil changes to check for metal particles. Unfortunately mine had a few VERY small flakes. I stopped by te shop to check out the "damage" and the mechanic pulled the sump cover to look for additional metal particles. After pulling the cover all that we were able to see was one (barely visible) spec of metal (confirmed it was metal as magnet picked it up). The car is a 2005 997s with date of production in January 2005. The prior owner suffered a catastrophic IMS failure and had the engine replaced by Porsche under warranty 19k miles ago in December of 2012. Based on date of engine replacement I am assuming that the big bearing IMS is currently in the car.

A few questions based on this scenario:
1) what is the likelihood of the IMS failing again on an engine replaced in 2012
2) has anyone used EPS in FL which has the ability to extract the big IMS for replacement? I found a very interesting video on their site which shows how the old bearing is milled out while engine is in the car w/o having to crack the case and rebuikd the motor.
3) what are estimates of labor hours to remove and replace "small IMS bearing", clutch, etc? I'm trying to gauge what a reasonable estimate might look like for the replacement (even if only precautionary at this point)...a little self insurance..
4) what are reasonable "going rates" for Indy shops in NJ?...looking for some insight w/o having to call all around.

Attached is a link to the video that I refernced above:
https://vimeo.com/118923581

myw

I'm not a pro but metal in the filter could be other problems (not necessarily ims) no?

The chances of a new engine with larger bearing are very very slim...

Keep us updated and best of luck!

gpjli2

Tricky question. Only real way to tell is to inspect the bearing. You can then research your options of which there are a few. "A few small" specks may mean nothing or be a warning. As pointed out above they could come from other working parts or even be normal wear and tear. Unfortunately "likelihood" is not the issue, either is or isn't. Lightning has been known to strike twice. You might want to proceed by sending oil out for analysis before diving in. Fingers crossed here.

Bruce In Philly

You are in a tough spot. If it were me, I would have the indy button it up and truck it to a dealer (unless the indy is really an expert on these issues).
The dealer may give you some break on any repair work given the known IMS issue. If it is the IMS, you caught it early and it can be fixed with little effort, just don't drive it until confirmation.

These engines have other failure modes beyond the IMS and I would take it to someone (the dealer) who knows where to look. I don't buy the belief that some flakes are OK. I've used magnetic drain plugs and never saw flakes.

And yes, lighting can strike twice. I blew two engines in my 2000 Boxster S. One failure was unknown but it was confirmed to NOT be the IMS and the other was unknown but IMS suspected.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

sambb

consider selling at carmax; they can give you a quote on the spot, that might be reasonable.

DC911S

I would not get wound up about a single fleck.

NAM VET

Excellence Mag some months ago in their tech column addressed "how much metal" one can have in an oil filter examination. Basically, several small tiny flecks are not a concern. Maybe 5 and more begin to be concerning. Of course, if one changes their oil at say 3K miles, or 10K miles, that too might make a difference.

All the best...

sy308

Cars that had factory replacement engines have a different block. If memory serves me correctly (you can look this up on line too) the replacement is an M97. Get under the car on the driver side and read the engine code. It is by the front of the engine. Easy to spot.

Point of fact, the replacement engines rarely have any IMS failures but this is theoretically possible with ANY engine of this configuration. Even the original problem blocks were so unusual that often smaller dealers did not ever have one. However, any time you cut a filter you need to be prepared for what is next. I recommend not doing a test unless you are going to use the information and act on it. My aircraft engine ALWAYS has a rare fleck of something in it. It is somewhat inevitable.

What you might look for is a crescendo of increasing metal in the filter over time. Personally, I would not put too much importance in a single fleck of metal based on the history of the car. If it is a beater, however, you might keep a closer eye on the oil changes, then sell at an appropriate time.

mgordon18

Nope. M97 engines are the 3.8L Carrera S engines. M96 engines are the 3.6L base engines.

If you have an S, your replacement will be an M97. If you have a base car, the replacement will be an M96. I believe the IMS bearings in the replacement engine will be the beefier type found in cars manufactured after February of 2005. This would be the case in M96 AND M97 replacements.

7391420

It would not worry me at all to have a flake or 2 in the filter or oil.

In my experience- this is totally normal for any engine regardless of make.

They could be just from break-in when the engine was replaced

Comanche_699

I'd never heard of EPS, I enjoyed that video. It's interesting & I appreciate the ingenuity behind the tool's design. Thanks for including the link.

SteveFromMN

Not all metal in the filter is from and IMS. I had flakes in my 50000 mile 996. Sent samples to all the top rebuilders. They all said not IMS, but didn't know what. One said these engines make a lot of metal!
Could be chain guides, pistons gauling and flaking coating, some other part failing. Maybe just stuff from rebuild? I traded mine in 4 years ago but as far as I know it's still going strong.

DC911S

As an engine breaks in its gong to fleck off some metal.

Ben Z

EPS is aka Vertex, the people who make the roller bearing IMS retrofit. I'm not convinced of the efficacy of that, but the tool to bore out the case for removal of the larger bearing seems intriguing. Would be interesting to get Jake's opinion of that, and if possibly LN might develop a ceramic bearing retrofit for the '06-'08 models.

Macster

Can't answer (1) above, but the odds your car's engine is suffering from an IMS failure right this minute is very low. A few flecks of metal, in the oil filter which is there to catch these, and one ferrous one in an oil sump that has not been removed since day one is not out of the ordinary.

You want something to worry about? Worry about whirled peas.