Intermittent oil level measurement
10-18-2015, 01:16 AM
#16
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There is Palo Alto Speedometer (in Palo Alto, CA) which has received good word of mouth, too.
Here's a Palo Alto Speedometer link:
http://www.paspeedo.com
There are I'm sure equally quality facilities scattered around the country but those are the two I have heard about.
Here's a Palo Alto Speedometer link:
http://www.paspeedo.com
There are I'm sure equally quality facilities scattered around the country but those are the two I have heard about.
and this is the one so many have used with success in SoCal.
10-18-2015, 08:56 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks guys. There are several leads that need to be checked. After everything else is eliminated, it's good to know cluster repair is an option if it comes to that.
11-26-2015, 12:19 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Ok, here's the latest. The cluster was sent out for repair. A problem was discovered and it was promptly fixed and returned.
The low oil level warning light is now gone. However, it still only indicates low level on the readout. It's at the bottom bar. After slowly adding 1/2 quart, it still reads low, bottom bar.
Prior to sending it off for repair, the dealer did an oil change. Supposedly they should know how much to put in and put in the correct amount even if the level measurement was not working.
The dilemma is whether to add the entire quart and risk overfilling. This would assume the dealer did not put enough oil in after the change and the level is truly low. At this point, the sender has been replaced, the wiring checked, and the cluster repaired. Thoughts?
(This is why there needs to be a manual method to check the level.)
The low oil level warning light is now gone. However, it still only indicates low level on the readout. It's at the bottom bar. After slowly adding 1/2 quart, it still reads low, bottom bar.
Prior to sending it off for repair, the dealer did an oil change. Supposedly they should know how much to put in and put in the correct amount even if the level measurement was not working.
The dilemma is whether to add the entire quart and risk overfilling. This would assume the dealer did not put enough oil in after the change and the level is truly low. At this point, the sender has been replaced, the wiring checked, and the cluster repaired. Thoughts?
(This is why there needs to be a manual method to check the level.)
11-26-2015, 12:59 PM
#20
Race Director
Ok, here's the latest. The cluster was sent out for repair. A problem was discovered and it was promptly fixed and returned.
The low oil level warning light is now gone. However, it still only indicates low level on the readout. It's at the bottom bar. After slowly adding 1/2 quart, it still reads low, bottom bar.
Prior to sending it off for repair, the dealer did an oil change. Supposedly they should know how much to put in and put in the correct amount even if the level measurement was not working.
The dilemma is whether to add the entire quart and risk overfilling. This would assume the dealer did not put enough oil in after the change and the level is truly low. At this point, the sender has been replaced, the wiring checked, and the cluster repaired. Thoughts?
(This is why there needs to be a manual method to check the level.)
The low oil level warning light is now gone. However, it still only indicates low level on the readout. It's at the bottom bar. After slowly adding 1/2 quart, it still reads low, bottom bar.
Prior to sending it off for repair, the dealer did an oil change. Supposedly they should know how much to put in and put in the correct amount even if the level measurement was not working.
The dilemma is whether to add the entire quart and risk overfilling. This would assume the dealer did not put enough oil in after the change and the level is truly low. At this point, the sender has been replaced, the wiring checked, and the cluster repaired. Thoughts?
(This is why there needs to be a manual method to check the level.)
The steps to do this are spelled out in the factory manual.
If the instrument cluster oil level display didn't then produce the correct/expected reading -- at the max line, not above and not below -- the tech should have noted this on the work order.
So you are faced with the possibilty the oil level is just wrong because the proper amount of oil was not put into the engine.
Thus rmc1148's advice to drain and measure the amount of oil to at least know it is close to being the right amount is a good suggestion.
For my 2003 with the oil hot enough to take an oil level reading, the oil is drained 20 minutes. Both the oil tank and the crankcase are drained. Also, each turbo oil collector is drained although just a small bit of oil drains from each of these.
The filter is removed and replaced. Any oil remaining in the housing area is removed by a suction device: Turkey baster.
7.8l (8.2qts) of oil is added to the engine and the engine started and idled until the fresh oil is hot enough to allow a reading to take place. IF the engine was warmed up prior to the oil change this doesn't take but a few minutes if that long.
The reading should be at the max line, not above and not below.
The times I have added oil to either of my engines the oil level sensor reacts to even a quarter of a quart.
11-26-2015, 02:07 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks guys. I'll pass this advice on. I agree at this point it's easiest to just drain and do another oil change.
I'll also do a search on adding a dipstick. I may want to do that at some point.
I'll also do a search on adding a dipstick. I may want to do that at some point.
11-26-2015, 04:54 PM
#22
Race Director
From the factory manual:
Fill in engine oil slowly in order to allow the oil sufficient time to flow from the oil container into the crankcase.
11-26-2015, 05:25 PM
#23
Ok, here's the latest. The cluster was sent out for repair. A problem was discovered and it was promptly fixed and returned.
The low oil level warning light is now gone. However, it still only indicates low level on the readout. It's at the bottom bar. After slowly adding 1/2 quart, it still reads low, bottom bar.
Prior to sending it off for repair, the dealer did an oil change. Supposedly they should know how much to put in and put in the correct amount even if the level measurement was not working.
The dilemma is whether to add the entire quart and risk overfilling. This would assume the dealer did not put enough oil in after the change and the level is truly low. At this point, the sender has been replaced, the wiring checked, and the cluster repaired. Thoughts?
(This is why there needs to be a manual method to check the level.)
The low oil level warning light is now gone. However, it still only indicates low level on the readout. It's at the bottom bar. After slowly adding 1/2 quart, it still reads low, bottom bar.
Prior to sending it off for repair, the dealer did an oil change. Supposedly they should know how much to put in and put in the correct amount even if the level measurement was not working.
The dilemma is whether to add the entire quart and risk overfilling. This would assume the dealer did not put enough oil in after the change and the level is truly low. At this point, the sender has been replaced, the wiring checked, and the cluster repaired. Thoughts?
(This is why there needs to be a manual method to check the level.)
more importantly, to your issue though..add 1/2 qt at a time until your level is correct. i predict one more 1/2-3/4 qt max and you should be there. NO danger of an overfill if the reading is at the lowest bar and you know the new gauge cluster is working.
add: EVERYone i know ( pro or tech ) adds 7.5/8 qts on a change, then adds to flavor. usually another 1/2 more max as the gauge suggests once running and getting up to measuring temp. this is w/out having drained the turbos. hope that helps. i dont at all feel you need to drain out ALL the new oil. though it might be prudent to call them to ensure they tell you they added 7-8 qts!! if they answer correctly on proper re-fill amounts? they aren't gonna have fkd up the quantity they added. unless they deserve to be shot. ( kidding )
11-26-2015, 07:20 PM
#24
Race Director
agree! just talking w my tech/buddy an hour ago during spoiler re-bleed about exactly that! adding a gt3 filler neck/dipstick! he says its ez as pumpkin pie.
more importantly, to your issue though..add 1/2 qt at a time until your level is correct. i predict one more 1/2-3/4 qt max and you should be there. NO danger of an overfill if the reading is at the lowest bar and you know the new gauge cluster is working.
add: EVERYone i know ( pro or tech ) adds 7.5/8 qts on a change, then adds to flavor. usually another 1/2 more max as the gauge suggests once running and getting up to measuring temp. this is w/out having drained the turbos. hope that helps. i dont at all feel you need to drain out ALL the new oil. though it might be prudent to call them to ensure they tell you they added 7-8 qts!! if they answer correctly on proper re-fill amounts? they aren't gonna have fkd up the quantity they added. unless they deserve to be shot. ( kidding )
more importantly, to your issue though..add 1/2 qt at a time until your level is correct. i predict one more 1/2-3/4 qt max and you should be there. NO danger of an overfill if the reading is at the lowest bar and you know the new gauge cluster is working.
add: EVERYone i know ( pro or tech ) adds 7.5/8 qts on a change, then adds to flavor. usually another 1/2 more max as the gauge suggests once running and getting up to measuring temp. this is w/out having drained the turbos. hope that helps. i dont at all feel you need to drain out ALL the new oil. though it might be prudent to call them to ensure they tell you they added 7-8 qts!! if they answer correctly on proper re-fill amounts? they aren't gonna have fkd up the quantity they added. unless they deserve to be shot. ( kidding )
If the shop added the right amount of oil why is the level showing low? If the system is working properly why didn't the 1/2 quart the OP added register?
Something's fishy. Thus the recommendation to drain the oil out -- and capture it in a clean container and see just how much came out -- then carefully add in 7.8l minus what the filter would account for, say 1/3 to 1/2 liter.
The oil level should be within a couple of bars of full/max then. And adding in say 1/2 quart should have the level up close to if not at the max line. If not something's wrong.
11-26-2015, 08:41 PM
#25
Not sure you can trust the shop to know how much oil was put in the engine. The tech will probably tell you want you want to hear, but if he wasn't paying attention...
If the shop added the right amount of oil why is the level showing low? If the system is working properly why didn't the 1/2 quart the OP added register?
Something's fishy. Thus the recommendation to drain the oil out -- and capture it in a clean container and see just how much came out -- then carefully add in 7.8l minus what the filter would account for, say 1/3 to 1/2 liter.
The oil level should be within a couple of bars of full/max then. And adding in say 1/2 quart should have the level up close to if not at the max line. If not something's wrong.
If the shop added the right amount of oil why is the level showing low? If the system is working properly why didn't the 1/2 quart the OP added register?
Something's fishy. Thus the recommendation to drain the oil out -- and capture it in a clean container and see just how much came out -- then carefully add in 7.8l minus what the filter would account for, say 1/3 to 1/2 liter.
The oil level should be within a couple of bars of full/max then. And adding in say 1/2 quart should have the level up close to if not at the max line. If not something's wrong.
my suggestion was predicated upon the notion that autobonrun here did not take his car to any old shop to have the oil changed and that a quick call to the shop mgr would be enough to ascertain how much oil they put in the car. or yeah, a chat with the tech. i don't believe they would fabricate some story about it. i hear ( read? ) what you're saying, but this isn't a jiffy lube/aamco kind of a place? so the guy is going to know how many qts they used, or that would be my thinking on it. i'm just saying that ANY porsche shop is going to know that you drain and put in 8 and check the level and add as needed.
but sure, if one were able to, at home, just remove the cpl screws and let it drain, then sure. i suppose that's a more reliable method and eliminates any conjecture. but if one could do all that? then why not just change the oil at home in the first place? but you guys are suggesting a better safe than sorry remedy and thats fine, but possibly overkill if its a hassle. i'm saying add a bit, check level again. call the shop, and i bet ya all is fine. its probably just a 1/2-3/4 qt low. assuming the damn gauge isn't STILL messed up! as i re-read the particulars. he had a bad gauge. the shop changed the oil and probably didn't add the remaining requisite extra oil to top it off.
thats my bet. whether or not the newer or repaired gauge is working is another yet possibly significant "x" factor.
btw.. that 7.8 figure you're quoting ( presumably from the manual? ) means someone isn't counting the -qt from the turbo's. but that makes sense too, since i dont drain em either.
11-28-2015, 01:06 PM
#26
Race Director
well geez mac. how about i wouldn't trust a shop you can't trust to know how much damn oil goes into a 996 turbo for a simple oil change!
my suggestion was predicated upon the notion that autobonrun here did not take his car to any old shop to have the oil changed and that a quick call to the shop mgr would be enough to ascertain how much oil they put in the car. or yeah, a chat with the tech. i don't believe they would fabricate some story about it. i hear ( read? ) what you're saying, but this isn't a jiffy lube/aamco kind of a place? so the guy is going to know how many qts they used, or that would be my thinking on it. i'm just saying that ANY porsche shop is going to know that you drain and put in 8 and check the level and add as needed.
but sure, if one were able to, at home, just remove the cpl screws and let it drain, then sure. i suppose that's a more reliable method and eliminates any conjecture. but if one could do all that? then why not just change the oil at home in the first place? but you guys are suggesting a better safe than sorry remedy and thats fine, but possibly overkill if its a hassle. i'm saying add a bit, check level again. call the shop, and i bet ya all is fine. its probably just a 1/2-3/4 qt low. assuming the damn gauge isn't STILL messed up! as i re-read the particulars. he had a bad gauge. the shop changed the oil and probably didn't add the remaining requisite extra oil to top it off.
thats my bet. whether or not the newer or repaired gauge is working is another yet possibly significant "x" factor.
btw.. that 7.8 figure you're quoting ( presumably from the manual? ) means someone isn't counting the -qt from the turbo's. but that makes sense too, since i dont drain em either.
my suggestion was predicated upon the notion that autobonrun here did not take his car to any old shop to have the oil changed and that a quick call to the shop mgr would be enough to ascertain how much oil they put in the car. or yeah, a chat with the tech. i don't believe they would fabricate some story about it. i hear ( read? ) what you're saying, but this isn't a jiffy lube/aamco kind of a place? so the guy is going to know how many qts they used, or that would be my thinking on it. i'm just saying that ANY porsche shop is going to know that you drain and put in 8 and check the level and add as needed.
but sure, if one were able to, at home, just remove the cpl screws and let it drain, then sure. i suppose that's a more reliable method and eliminates any conjecture. but if one could do all that? then why not just change the oil at home in the first place? but you guys are suggesting a better safe than sorry remedy and thats fine, but possibly overkill if its a hassle. i'm saying add a bit, check level again. call the shop, and i bet ya all is fine. its probably just a 1/2-3/4 qt low. assuming the damn gauge isn't STILL messed up! as i re-read the particulars. he had a bad gauge. the shop changed the oil and probably didn't add the remaining requisite extra oil to top it off.
thats my bet. whether or not the newer or repaired gauge is working is another yet possibly significant "x" factor.
btw.. that 7.8 figure you're quoting ( presumably from the manual? ) means someone isn't counting the -qt from the turbo's. but that makes sense too, since i dont drain em either.
Here's what the OP had to say:
The low oil level warning light is now gone. However, it still only indicates low level on the readout. It's at the bottom bar. After slowly adding 1/2 quart, it still reads low, bottom bar.
Prior to sending it off for repair, the dealer did an oil change. Supposedly they should know how much to put in and put in the correct amount even if the level measurement was not working.
The dilemma is whether to add the entire quart and risk overfilling. This would assume the dealer did not put enough oil in after the change and the level is truly low. At this point, the sender has been replaced, the wiring checked, and the cluster repaired. Thoughts?
The car came back with the level low. If one assumes the shop did the job right then the proper action is to take the car back and have the oil level system fixed.
This assumes that the shop because it did the operation right did the change right and found the level reading ok and released the car. So the level went "bad" afterwards.
As an aside, do not be so sure the tech that changes the oil even at a dealer is all that savvy about how to do the job. Over the last couple of years I've learned more and more senior techs are leaving dealerships. The new techs often receive training this is for the newer cars/models. Remember the Turbo was "new" back in 2001 and training for this was done then. That was 13/14 years ago.
In one case I came upon the most senior tech, with around 10 years' experience, had 6 or 7 cars stacked up for him to work on, while the less senior techs just had one.
At one dealer the SM told me he can't afford to let his most senior tech just "do an oil change" as there are much more pressing and lucrative things for him to work on. The less senior tech will get the oil changes.
Back to the main subject line: So the OP added a quart of oil. The level did not change. This is quite contrary to my experience with both of my cars both electronic oil level systems react to the addition of even less than a quart of oil.
Given the assumption the level was correct when the car left the shop now it has too much oil and on top of this the oil level system is not working right.
If the OP wants to investigate this I offered up what I would do. If he doesn't want to do this then the car should go back to the shop to have the extra quart of oil removed and the oil level system fixed. Again.
12-02-2015, 12:43 PM
#27
Assuming the car in question belonged to M.B. (I repaired his cluster), the dealer had underfilled the oil (actually the safest in this case) while the cluster was not reading properly. Now that the cluster is working again, it took more than two quarts to get properly filled.
It seems that the 996/986 clusters, especially the late versions are very susceptible to damage from over or reverse voltage conditions. This is something that the designing engineers at VDO SHOULD have taken into account. I have been through OEM electronics design, testing and validation, and honestly I am a bit surprised that they didn't take this into account in the design, but I think I know exactly why they missed it. A coworker of mine some years ago got fired for missing a similar issue in one one of his designs, costing the company hundreds of thousands to deal with as it made it into the first production run. The good news is that in my experience this damage is repairable to as new condition. I have been looking into a redesign to fix this issue once and for all, but doing so doesn't make much sense as no one would do this unless they already had the problem.
Some care and feeding instructions to make sure your car electronics stay healthy:
1. NEVER use the high current "Start" function on AC powered battery charger/jump boxes. Doing so can couple large AC voltage spikes into the electrical system if the battery is severely discharged. Jump from another battery or just charge the battery properly. Impatience leads to damage.
2. Be very careful connecting jumper or charging leads to a discharged battery as well as connecting new batteries. Electricity travels at the speed of light. Connecting the leads backwards even for just an instant can damage the electronics in your car.
3. NEVER disconnect the battery in your car while it is running. While this seems obvious, some people do this to switch batteries so they don't have to reset clocks, etc. This is one of the worst things you can do to a car's electronics. While the electronics in the car are designed to withstand load dumps it does not always work. I can just about guarantee if you this on a 996 it will blow the cluster.
For reference, I bought an '03 Boxster S a couple of years ago that the previous owner had installed the battery backwards on after his battery had discharged due to a damaged alarm module. If you have changed the battery in your car, you know that connecting one backwards is not easy, but he worked hard and did it. The resulting damage ended up totalling the car. This blew about 10 fuses, damaged the cluster, DME, CD changer, alternator, radio and the already damaged alarm/immobilizer module. Luckily I was able to repair everything but the corroded alarm module which I replaced with a used one.
It seems that the 996/986 clusters, especially the late versions are very susceptible to damage from over or reverse voltage conditions. This is something that the designing engineers at VDO SHOULD have taken into account. I have been through OEM electronics design, testing and validation, and honestly I am a bit surprised that they didn't take this into account in the design, but I think I know exactly why they missed it. A coworker of mine some years ago got fired for missing a similar issue in one one of his designs, costing the company hundreds of thousands to deal with as it made it into the first production run. The good news is that in my experience this damage is repairable to as new condition. I have been looking into a redesign to fix this issue once and for all, but doing so doesn't make much sense as no one would do this unless they already had the problem.
Some care and feeding instructions to make sure your car electronics stay healthy:
1. NEVER use the high current "Start" function on AC powered battery charger/jump boxes. Doing so can couple large AC voltage spikes into the electrical system if the battery is severely discharged. Jump from another battery or just charge the battery properly. Impatience leads to damage.
2. Be very careful connecting jumper or charging leads to a discharged battery as well as connecting new batteries. Electricity travels at the speed of light. Connecting the leads backwards even for just an instant can damage the electronics in your car.
3. NEVER disconnect the battery in your car while it is running. While this seems obvious, some people do this to switch batteries so they don't have to reset clocks, etc. This is one of the worst things you can do to a car's electronics. While the electronics in the car are designed to withstand load dumps it does not always work. I can just about guarantee if you this on a 996 it will blow the cluster.
For reference, I bought an '03 Boxster S a couple of years ago that the previous owner had installed the battery backwards on after his battery had discharged due to a damaged alarm module. If you have changed the battery in your car, you know that connecting one backwards is not easy, but he worked hard and did it. The resulting damage ended up totalling the car. This blew about 10 fuses, damaged the cluster, DME, CD changer, alternator, radio and the already damaged alarm/immobilizer module. Luckily I was able to repair everything but the corroded alarm module which I replaced with a used one.
12-02-2015, 03:33 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Assuming the car in question belonged to M.B. (I repaired his cluster), the dealer had underfilled the oil (actually the safest in this case) while the cluster was not reading properly. Now that the cluster is working again, it took more than two quarts to get properly filled.
It seems that the 996/986 clusters, especially the late versions are very susceptible to damage from over or reverse voltage conditions. This is something that the designing engineers at VDO SHOULD have taken into account. I have been through OEM electronics design, testing and validation, and honestly I am a bit surprised that they didn't take this into account in the design, but I think I know exactly why they missed it. A coworker of mine some years ago got fired for missing a similar issue in one one of his designs, costing the company hundreds of thousands to deal with as it made it into the first production run. The good news is that in my experience this damage is repairable to as new condition. I have been looking into a redesign to fix this issue once and for all, but doing so doesn't make much sense as no one would do this unless they already had the problem.
Some care and feeding instructions to make sure your car electronics stay healthy:
1. NEVER use the high current "Start" function on AC powered battery charger/jump boxes. Doing so can couple large AC voltage spikes into the electrical system if the battery is severely discharged. Jump from another battery or just charge the battery properly. Impatience leads to damage.
2. Be very careful connecting jumper or charging leads to a discharged battery as well as connecting new batteries. Electricity travels at the speed of light. Connecting the leads backwards even for just an instant can damage the electronics in your car.
3. NEVER disconnect the battery in your car while it is running. While this seems obvious, some people do this to switch batteries so they don't have to reset clocks, etc. This is one of the worst things you can do to a car's electronics. While the electronics in the car are designed to withstand load dumps it does not always work. I can just about guarantee if you this on a 996 it will blow the cluster.
For reference, I bought an '03 Boxster S a couple of years ago that the previous owner had installed the battery backwards on after his battery had discharged due to a damaged alarm module. If you have changed the battery in your car, you know that connecting one backwards is not easy, but he worked hard and did it. The resulting damage ended up totalling the car. This blew about 10 fuses, damaged the cluster, DME, CD changer, alternator, radio and the already damaged alarm/immobilizer module. Luckily I was able to repair everything but the corroded alarm module which I replaced with a used one.
It seems that the 996/986 clusters, especially the late versions are very susceptible to damage from over or reverse voltage conditions. This is something that the designing engineers at VDO SHOULD have taken into account. I have been through OEM electronics design, testing and validation, and honestly I am a bit surprised that they didn't take this into account in the design, but I think I know exactly why they missed it. A coworker of mine some years ago got fired for missing a similar issue in one one of his designs, costing the company hundreds of thousands to deal with as it made it into the first production run. The good news is that in my experience this damage is repairable to as new condition. I have been looking into a redesign to fix this issue once and for all, but doing so doesn't make much sense as no one would do this unless they already had the problem.
Some care and feeding instructions to make sure your car electronics stay healthy:
1. NEVER use the high current "Start" function on AC powered battery charger/jump boxes. Doing so can couple large AC voltage spikes into the electrical system if the battery is severely discharged. Jump from another battery or just charge the battery properly. Impatience leads to damage.
2. Be very careful connecting jumper or charging leads to a discharged battery as well as connecting new batteries. Electricity travels at the speed of light. Connecting the leads backwards even for just an instant can damage the electronics in your car.
3. NEVER disconnect the battery in your car while it is running. While this seems obvious, some people do this to switch batteries so they don't have to reset clocks, etc. This is one of the worst things you can do to a car's electronics. While the electronics in the car are designed to withstand load dumps it does not always work. I can just about guarantee if you this on a 996 it will blow the cluster.
For reference, I bought an '03 Boxster S a couple of years ago that the previous owner had installed the battery backwards on after his battery had discharged due to a damaged alarm module. If you have changed the battery in your car, you know that connecting one backwards is not easy, but he worked hard and did it. The resulting damage ended up totalling the car. This blew about 10 fuses, damaged the cluster, DME, CD changer, alternator, radio and the already damaged alarm/immobilizer module. Luckily I was able to repair everything but the corroded alarm module which I replaced with a used one.
Once it was driven under load it did register one bar level. At this point it was clear everything was working. With nothing registering it's impossible to tell whether it's really that low or something is defective. I call that a "live zero" in my line of work. It took over a quart to get it up in the range. I guess even the dealer didn't know where he stood on oil quantity without a working gage. However, we think they should have. There's no excuse for not putting enough oil in if they keep track of what gets added. The same dealer that said the cluster could not be repaired and had to be replaced.
12-02-2015, 05:02 PM
#29
but once knowing you've done a complete drain? that's EXACTLY right. only a fool for a tech wouldn't ( again! lol ) know that you drain all the oil ( not even needing to drain the turbo's ) then add 7.5+/- 8 MAX! ( which it sounds as if they did to be "safe".. and what all knowledgeable turbo techs do..) then check and add as needed. but if they did a full drain? besides the 1/3 litre or whatever minimal amount IS left in the turbo's that still won't significantly effect how much ( more ) is needed to get up to the full fill of nearly 9 qts. so another qt equalled 9 in total! ) was/is about right...and always is!
it just isn't that complicated.