Dealer refusing to allow offsite PPI?
08-13-2004, 02:18 AM
#16
Burning Brakes
Certified or not, a warranty is only as good as the people behind it. Who does these certification inspections? Is it the dealer? I'd rather have a car without problems than one with problems and have to beat the dealer over the head to fix it.
08-13-2004, 02:57 AM
#17
Instructor
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I was looking for a 996 I test drove one at Carlsen Porsche in Redwood City, CA and even before I had a chance to bring the subject up the salesman told me I could have a PPI done anywhere I wanted to. I would never buy a used car without a PPI even if it had a warranty. Afterall, we are talking about the used car business! 
08-13-2004, 11:06 AM
#18
Instructor
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: montclair, NJ
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Colm
If an Audi dealership did that then there was fraud involved..and the appropriate remedies.
The "certified" car is as worry free as it gets. Spend some time to understand what Porsche requires of a dealership to certify a car versus a "cursory" PDI and you'll see it's a no brainer. Some people posting here obviously don't!
Ask each party to give you the guidelines for PDI and the "certified" program... yes they have them.
The "certified" car is as worry free as it gets. Spend some time to understand what Porsche requires of a dealership to certify a car versus a "cursory" PDI and you'll see it's a no brainer. Some people posting here obviously don't!
Ask each party to give you the guidelines for PDI and the "certified" program... yes they have them.
08-13-2004, 03:06 PM
#19
Racer
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: looking for a job ... Colorado by bye 996 C4 :(
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a dealership committing fraud? Nope that has never happened before.
There are good dealerships and there are bad bed dealerships. Both have one goal in mind to make as much money as they can. Fair enough. Dealerships know that more people will be interested in a certified versus a non-certified car. And they can ask for a premium for that used car. What is to keep a dealership honest about signing off on the check list for certification? If the car is as good as they say it is, why should the dealership have a problem with a 3rd party check. As a consumer shouldn't you project yourself as best as you can? Again I ask, how many times on here have you read "always get a PPI."
I guess, I would want to know why the dealership has a problem with it? To me it raise a red flag. Cause once you buy it its yours for good or bad. The PPI lets you know what your dealing with.
There are good dealerships and there are bad bed dealerships. Both have one goal in mind to make as much money as they can. Fair enough. Dealerships know that more people will be interested in a certified versus a non-certified car. And they can ask for a premium for that used car. What is to keep a dealership honest about signing off on the check list for certification? If the car is as good as they say it is, why should the dealership have a problem with a 3rd party check. As a consumer shouldn't you project yourself as best as you can? Again I ask, how many times on here have you read "always get a PPI."
I guess, I would want to know why the dealership has a problem with it? To me it raise a red flag. Cause once you buy it its yours for good or bad. The PPI lets you know what your dealing with.
08-13-2004, 03:20 PM
#20
Intermediate
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: London
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just my .02 worth:
(1) There is an inevitable conflict of interest (by definition) where the people selling you the car are also the people certifying it (btw, I'm not doubting the good faith of the certification process or those who carry out the certification).
(2) A PPI by an independent person (as long as he is competent) removes (as best you can) the potential for the buyer to suffer, at the end of the day. Although you may be able to return the car for work under warranty, being doubly satisfied by having a "clean" PPI report along with certification gives you maximum peace of mind, which you may feel you need when spending this much money on a car.
(3) I am fairly certain that there are numerous examples on any of the various forums (even on this thread - see above) of people in both the US and the UK having had PPI's done on certified cars and the PPI picking up things that need doing (dings, etc) that the man on the street (i.e. someone completely useless like me) I would not pick up. This alone (to my mind, and I appreciate others may think differently) makes a PPI worthwhile.
(4) I'm a little surprised that your PPI guys weren't happy about having to go over to the dealer to look at the car - quite common in the UK, and the PPI guy (if suitably insured of course) can take the car out (and out of the parking lot!).
(5) (Again just a personal view), anyone prepared to certify a car ought to be prepared to have a PPI done. By definition (on their account of things), the PPI will find nothing that needs doing
.
Regards
Deeps
(1) There is an inevitable conflict of interest (by definition) where the people selling you the car are also the people certifying it (btw, I'm not doubting the good faith of the certification process or those who carry out the certification).
(2) A PPI by an independent person (as long as he is competent) removes (as best you can) the potential for the buyer to suffer, at the end of the day. Although you may be able to return the car for work under warranty, being doubly satisfied by having a "clean" PPI report along with certification gives you maximum peace of mind, which you may feel you need when spending this much money on a car.
(3) I am fairly certain that there are numerous examples on any of the various forums (even on this thread - see above) of people in both the US and the UK having had PPI's done on certified cars and the PPI picking up things that need doing (dings, etc) that the man on the street (i.e. someone completely useless like me) I would not pick up. This alone (to my mind, and I appreciate others may think differently) makes a PPI worthwhile.
(4) I'm a little surprised that your PPI guys weren't happy about having to go over to the dealer to look at the car - quite common in the UK, and the PPI guy (if suitably insured of course) can take the car out (and out of the parking lot!).
(5) (Again just a personal view), anyone prepared to certify a car ought to be prepared to have a PPI done. By definition (on their account of things), the PPI will find nothing that needs doing
.Regards
Deeps
08-13-2004, 03:30 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: A small horse farm in VA
Posts: 975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Come on Folks
As Colm stated, read the language of the Certification Agreement....The dealer is acting in a agent capacity for PCNA and the Factory......this is a worldwide document....
Dealers have good reasons for not sending cars out unless they have a bonafide contract to sell....
My experience over 30 years with Porsche dealers all over the country has been great....Most have gone to any length to to the right thing...No dealer wants to risk reputation, franchise rights and allocation restrictions...
Do a PPI onsite, if you are uncomfortable......
I am sure people have horror tales to share, but I suspect they are the exception, not the rule......
Last comment, if folks don't like a dealer's policy go to another one.....We are in America afterall
Dealers have good reasons for not sending cars out unless they have a bonafide contract to sell....
My experience over 30 years with Porsche dealers all over the country has been great....Most have gone to any length to to the right thing...No dealer wants to risk reputation, franchise rights and allocation restrictions...
Do a PPI onsite, if you are uncomfortable......
I am sure people have horror tales to share, but I suspect they are the exception, not the rule......
Last comment, if folks don't like a dealer's policy go to another one.....We are in America afterall
08-13-2004, 06:34 PM
#22
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks everyone for the great replies and advice. I spoke with the dealer and according to my sales person, they offered to let the independent come onsite (and use a lift) to inspect the car and that Perf Auto agreed. Very strange considering that according to Perf Auto, they are not interested in doing that.
The dealer is going to try to work it out with them. Someone must have rubbed someone the wrong way. In any event, I'm going to head down and see the car in person next week. Hopefully, I can work out a professional PPI prior to that...
If any PA guys happen to find yourselves at Brandywine over the weekend, and wouldnt mind taking a quick look see at the 99 silver, aerokit, tip I'd be most appreciative!
The dealer is going to try to work it out with them. Someone must have rubbed someone the wrong way. In any event, I'm going to head down and see the car in person next week. Hopefully, I can work out a professional PPI prior to that...
If any PA guys happen to find yourselves at Brandywine over the weekend, and wouldnt mind taking a quick look see at the 99 silver, aerokit, tip I'd be most appreciative!
08-13-2004, 11:02 PM
#23
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,802
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The paranoid don't need to find something to worry about.
Let me tell you a little story about certified cars and why you can take a great deal of comfort in "certified" cars
My wife got in an accident with our 04 Cayenne TT (3000 miles) and I got an estimate from the dealer recommended body shop..estimate $25K.
OK, so I figured I'll do a deal and get a new one (taking a small hit for the convenience)and let the Dealer take care of getting the car repaired.
No way, the dealer (or any others I talked were not interested) because the car could not be certified.
You should consider that I'm a very good customer, who buys 2-3 cars per year, and they wouldn't do it for me. Why? because they didn't want the liability of selling a potentially troublesome car to a customer.
This speaks pretty well for the dealer(s) (California), and their sensitivity towards their obligations They have rigorous standards, be it for a known or unknown customer.
Moral of the story: buy your used Porsche from a dealer, and get it certified...while ther is always risk of the unknown you will have minimized it...and a PPI (not PDI) will not tell you anything more than the Dealers inspection.
Price is another matter.
Let me tell you a little story about certified cars and why you can take a great deal of comfort in "certified" cars
My wife got in an accident with our 04 Cayenne TT (3000 miles) and I got an estimate from the dealer recommended body shop..estimate $25K.
OK, so I figured I'll do a deal and get a new one (taking a small hit for the convenience)and let the Dealer take care of getting the car repaired.
No way, the dealer (or any others I talked were not interested) because the car could not be certified.
You should consider that I'm a very good customer, who buys 2-3 cars per year, and they wouldn't do it for me. Why? because they didn't want the liability of selling a potentially troublesome car to a customer.
This speaks pretty well for the dealer(s) (California), and their sensitivity towards their obligations They have rigorous standards, be it for a known or unknown customer.
Moral of the story: buy your used Porsche from a dealer, and get it certified...while ther is always risk of the unknown you will have minimized it...and a PPI (not PDI) will not tell you anything more than the Dealers inspection.
Price is another matter.
08-14-2004, 09:08 AM
#24
Instructor
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: montclair, NJ
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Colm
The paranoid don't need to find something to worry about.
Let me tell you a little story about certified cars and why you can take a great deal of comfort in "certified" cars
My wife got in an accident with our 04 Cayenne TT (3000 miles) and I got an estimate from the dealer recommended body shop..estimate $25K.
OK, so I figured I'll do a deal and get a new one (taking a small hit for the convenience)and let the Dealer take care of getting the car repaired.
No way, the dealer (or any others I talked were not interested) because the car could not be certified.
You should consider that I'm a very good customer, who buys 2-3 cars per year, and they wouldn't do it for me. Why? because they didn't want the liability of selling a potentially troublesome car to a customer.
This speaks pretty well for the dealer(s) (California), and their sensitivity towards their obligations They have rigorous standards, be it for a known or unknown customer.
Moral of the story: buy your used Porsche from a dealer, and get it certified...while ther is always risk of the unknown you will have minimized it...and a PPI (not PDI) will not tell you anything more than the Dealers inspection.
Price is another matter.
Let me tell you a little story about certified cars and why you can take a great deal of comfort in "certified" cars
My wife got in an accident with our 04 Cayenne TT (3000 miles) and I got an estimate from the dealer recommended body shop..estimate $25K.
OK, so I figured I'll do a deal and get a new one (taking a small hit for the convenience)and let the Dealer take care of getting the car repaired.
No way, the dealer (or any others I talked were not interested) because the car could not be certified.
You should consider that I'm a very good customer, who buys 2-3 cars per year, and they wouldn't do it for me. Why? because they didn't want the liability of selling a potentially troublesome car to a customer.
This speaks pretty well for the dealer(s) (California), and their sensitivity towards their obligations They have rigorous standards, be it for a known or unknown customer.
Moral of the story: buy your used Porsche from a dealer, and get it certified...while ther is always risk of the unknown you will have minimized it...and a PPI (not PDI) will not tell you anything more than the Dealers inspection.
Price is another matter.
Colm, you continue to miss the mark. The fact that you have established a good relationship with a reputable dealer is great. Has nothing to do with this situation. This person has had NO DEALINGS with this dealer. He has no experience with this dealer and the history of the car is unknown to him. Suggesting that because your dealer is reputable, all dealers must be reputable is disengenuous. Here's another story - I was looking at a pre-owned car at a dealership in Northern Jersey. He would sell it to me certified for $2K more than uncertified. When I asked him if it had original paint he said he didn't know and would have to check. This was AFTER he had offered to certify it. Here as anywhere," Buyer Beware" applies.
08-14-2004, 11:25 AM
#25
I guess we are all now belaboring the point somewhat. Apparently there are those that consider the certification "gold", almost a guaranteed new car. I fall in the other category, i.e. those that feel a used car is always to a certain degree an unknown quantity. Certainly, new cars can also have had damage. A colleague once bought a Miata that turned out to have had front-end damage repaired before its "new car sale." Someone must have wrecked it, or it fell off the truck with less than 42 miles. After endless trips back to the dealer to try and have the front properly aligned, an independent shop discovered the damage. After months of hassle and the intervention of a lawyer, the dealership agreed to a deal which wasn't perfect but my colleague had been beaten down. Thus, I agree that even with a new car one can have trouble. Nonetheless, the standard for a new car is vastly different than that for a used one. If you discover that your car has had some paint work done on, say, the rear bumper the dealership will mostly like send you away with a "well, it's a pre-owned vehicle and we didn't know." Ask me how I know...
Geert
08-14-2004, 07:15 PM
#27
The dealership I had this happen with was a Volvo dealership. We bought a certified family wagon a couple of years ago. Low miles, looked mint. One day I noticed some flaking on a spot on the side of the rear bumper. Obviously a repainted bumper. When quizzed, the dealer said, "Well, since it was pre-owned we cannot know all of its history. The first owner may have had the bumper repainted." So there.
Of course, we are talking about cosmetics, and perhaps the Porsche dealer is more stringent. I did read somewhere that Volvo and Jaguar's certified programs were the best in the industry coverage-wise. As for pursuing the issue to have the bumper repainted properly; ever seen a family station wagon inside?
Kinda makes the outside irrelevant.
That is what I have the Porsche for: serene cleanliness, profound perfection. No food, no drink (early 996 years have no cupholder
!). Usually I make the kids take their shoes off when getting in.
Geert
Of course, we are talking about cosmetics, and perhaps the Porsche dealer is more stringent. I did read somewhere that Volvo and Jaguar's certified programs were the best in the industry coverage-wise. As for pursuing the issue to have the bumper repainted properly; ever seen a family station wagon inside?
Kinda makes the outside irrelevant.That is what I have the Porsche for: serene cleanliness, profound perfection. No food, no drink (early 996 years have no cupholder
!). Usually I make the kids take their shoes off when getting in.Geert
08-19-2004, 01:51 PM
#28
Instructor
Thread Starter
Update:
Went down to Brandywine, checked out the car myself, bought it and love it. Everything was as represented by them and the experience was excellent (worked with Tom).
As a little bonus (for me at least) the car had B&B headers and exhaust which was a nice plus. Brandywine was great in providing the service records, certification inspection sheet and records of everything they performed to bring the car up to certification level.
Not sure what had happened with the PPI situation (probably will never know), but the car looked/sounded/felt right to me and I've got the warranty, so I went for it.
Went down to Brandywine, checked out the car myself, bought it and love it. Everything was as represented by them and the experience was excellent (worked with Tom).
As a little bonus (for me at least) the car had B&B headers and exhaust which was a nice plus. Brandywine was great in providing the service records, certification inspection sheet and records of everything they performed to bring the car up to certification level.
Not sure what had happened with the PPI situation (probably will never know), but the car looked/sounded/felt right to me and I've got the warranty, so I went for it.
08-19-2004, 02:10 PM
#29
First Brandywine has great rep. I also know people who "go out there" and pass other dealers along the way. What I suggest is either pay Brandywine for the Inspection and get the R.O and notes. THereby binding there service department in an accurate assessment that either agrees with their sales or disagrees with.
OR buy it contigent on the PPI elsewhere, drive down, buy it and have it checked. Pass no problem.
BTW is there a specific issue that you are concerned about? Aside from the usual. Because if is RMS or Bodywork, likely there are alternative ways to find this out ( Carfax, dealer records etc). Also, you could ask if they would give the name and number of the previous owner to check on accident history.
Overall if you like the car and the price, go with it.
ScottS
OR buy it contigent on the PPI elsewhere, drive down, buy it and have it checked. Pass no problem.
BTW is there a specific issue that you are concerned about? Aside from the usual. Because if is RMS or Bodywork, likely there are alternative ways to find this out ( Carfax, dealer records etc). Also, you could ask if they would give the name and number of the previous owner to check on accident history.
Overall if you like the car and the price, go with it.
ScottS
