PTS production?
11-01-2014, 05:25 AM
#32
I love you too...
Eduardo....love you to death but unfortunately emissions changes or U.S. DOT (assuming this is correct) wouldn't necessarily start for vehicles produced after Jan 1st, 2015 if they are still M.Y. 2015...it is typically mandated by model year so if a 2015 M.Y. is produced on Feb 2nd, 2015 it would still be held to U.S. standards of 2015 M.Y. If a 2016 M.Y. then it is held to 2016 M.Y. standards regardless of when it is produced.
I had a July 1972 built MY1973 911T coupe that had different bumpers than those mandated after Jan 1973. And both were MY1973 Porsches. And Porsche built them differently before Dec 31st, 1972 & after Jan 1st, 1973! (see attached photos).
And I ordered a BMW M3 that was built in September 1995 for October 1995 European Delivery when normally it would have been a MY1996. Yet BMW labeled it a MY1995 because the engine was only eligible for calendar year 1995 for US emissions. So even at this late Fall date in 1995, it was categorized as a MY1995 M3 because the engine would not meet MY1996 US emission regulations and I suffered an extra year of depreciation when I sold it years later!
US regulations are mandated when they are mandated by government fiat or legislation, usually by a date certain in Jan 1st of a year. And if it's small stuff and the auto manufacturer knows about it in advance, they will start integrating these mandated items into their built standards (e.g. motors) at the start of their model year. In Porsche's case, MY2015 regular 991 started to be built in the first week of June of 2014 and MY2015 gt3's perhaps in last week of August or first week of September 2014! But if it's bigger stuff that will impact Porsche's ability to sell an entire model line due to emissions beyond a date certain (perhaps the case of the motor in the MY2015 991 gt3 after Jan 2015), the company will continue to built gt3's in calendar year 2014 until the mandated expiration date per US regulations in their biggest market. In this case, January 1st, 2015. Porsche will take advantage of the rules & regulations & produce what suits them from a sales point of view per important regional market. We will confirm the reality of Porsche's gt3 sales plan for the US market soon enough...if it suddenly ends by Dec 31st, 2014 or continues into January/February 2015!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
.
11-01-2014, 08:36 AM
#33
Three Wheelin'
Sccchiii, I love you too brother...but I know differently on US regulations. I talk from experience, not from anything else.
I had a July 1972 built MY1973 911T coupe that had different bumpers than those mandated after Jan 1973. And both were MY1973 Porsches. And Porsche built them differently before Dec 31st, 1972 & after Jan 1st, 1973! (see attached photos).
And I ordered a BMW M3 that was built in September 1995 for October 1995 European Delivery when normally it would have been a MY1996. Yet BMW labeled it a MY1995 because the engine was only eligible for calendar year 1995 for US emissions. So even at this late Fall date in 1995, it was categorized as a MY1995 M3 because the engine would not meet MY1996 US emission regulations and I suffered an extra year of depreciation when I sold it years later!
US regulations are mandated when they are mandated by government fiat or legislation, usually by a date certain in Jan 1st of a year. And if it's small stuff and the auto manufacturer knows about it in advance, they will start integrating these mandated items into their built standards (e.g. motors) at the start of their model year. In Porsche's case, MY2015 regular 991 started to be built in the first week of June of 2014 and MY2015 gt3's perhaps in last week of August or first week of September 2014! But if it's bigger stuff that will impact Porsche's ability to sell an entire model line due to emissions beyond a date certain (perhaps the case of the motor in the MY2015 991 gt3 after Jan 2015), the company will continue to built gt3's in calendar year 2014 until the mandated expiration date per US regulations in their biggest market. In this case, January 1st, 2015. Porsche will take advantage of the rules & regulations & produce what suits them from a sales point of view per important regional market. We will confirm the reality of Porsche's gt3 sales plan for the US market soon enough...if it suddenly ends by Dec 31st, 2014 or continues into January/February 2015!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
.
I had a July 1972 built MY1973 911T coupe that had different bumpers than those mandated after Jan 1973. And both were MY1973 Porsches. And Porsche built them differently before Dec 31st, 1972 & after Jan 1st, 1973! (see attached photos).
And I ordered a BMW M3 that was built in September 1995 for October 1995 European Delivery when normally it would have been a MY1996. Yet BMW labeled it a MY1995 because the engine was only eligible for calendar year 1995 for US emissions. So even at this late Fall date in 1995, it was categorized as a MY1995 M3 because the engine would not meet MY1996 US emission regulations and I suffered an extra year of depreciation when I sold it years later!
US regulations are mandated when they are mandated by government fiat or legislation, usually by a date certain in Jan 1st of a year. And if it's small stuff and the auto manufacturer knows about it in advance, they will start integrating these mandated items into their built standards (e.g. motors) at the start of their model year. In Porsche's case, MY2015 regular 991 started to be built in the first week of June of 2014 and MY2015 gt3's perhaps in last week of August or first week of September 2014! But if it's bigger stuff that will impact Porsche's ability to sell an entire model line due to emissions beyond a date certain (perhaps the case of the motor in the MY2015 991 gt3 after Jan 2015), the company will continue to built gt3's in calendar year 2014 until the mandated expiration date per US regulations in their biggest market. In this case, January 1st, 2015. Porsche will take advantage of the rules & regulations & produce what suits them from a sales point of view per important regional market. We will confirm the reality of Porsche's gt3 sales plan for the US market soon enough...if it suddenly ends by Dec 31st, 2014 or continues into January/February 2015!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
.
11-01-2014, 11:30 AM
#34
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have the sheet, trust my info
11-01-2014, 02:41 PM
#35
Well I think you have just agreed with my point....just because a regulation might be in effect on jan 1st, 2015.....it typically applies to actual model year of car not when it was produced. In your examples the manufacturer made the model years comply with the standards regardless of when they were produced and is exactly why your bmw was a 1995 and regardless of when bmw produced it still fell within 1995 my standards. These standards would have no bearing on why Porsche would stop production in Dec 2014. If we are to believe that actual production stops on dec 31st there is a reason that we all are missing, it isn't because of emissions, us dot, or GT3 RS production starting. U.S. or R.O.W.( or both for that matter), my prediction is we will have GT3s with production stickers that say 1/15 and possibly 2/15. If I am wrong I'm certain I will be reminded on here by many ha ha
Note that your theory would not explain the historical fact that Porsche built my old Model Year 1973 'Signal Yellow' 911 sunroof T coupe in July of 1972 with at least 3 things that did not meet US DOT regulations past Jan 1, 1973. Sport seats without the double safety latch underneath, smaller front & rear bumpers and the older E & S type mechanical fuel injection. So even though it was labeled a MY1973 when it was built in 1972, it didn't meet MY1973 codes after Jan 1973. Starting in the fall of 1972, as it got closer to Jan of 1973, Porsche started to incorporate the US mandated changes (to go into effect Jan of 1973) into series production. By December, 1972, all MY1973 911T's had the double latches on the sport seats (if so ordered), larger rubber bumpers & the new Bosch K-jetronic (CIS) fuel injection system in the motor! Yet both my July production and that Dec production car were both labeled MY1973. But in practice, we started labeling the cars built to comply after Jan 1973 the 1973 1/2 model. And all of us understand what it means when you say 'This is a MY1973 1/2'. Just a point for reference to say that there is historical precedence to my theory on Model Year labels & vagaries of US mandates to explain how it might be related to the gt3 and Dec 31, 2014.
sccchiii: So your theory (as I understand it) is a good & reasonable...but only one of us is right! We will find out soon enough whose theory plays out. If yours is the correct interpretation, it doesn't explain why PCNA initially said a few months ago that they would stop gt3 production for US customers in December of 2014 and not allow customers for later 2015 gt3 allocations in Jan/Feb so that it could accommodate Paint to Sample requests on this important & expensive model. So we still need to solve that riddle!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
11-01-2014, 06:31 PM
#36
Three Wheelin'
If U.S. Bound GT3s do stop production in DEC my suspicion is that it will have something to do with C.A.F.E. Standards. I believe this could possibly explain why they would sacrifice GT3 to produce GT3 RS, not because they can't be done together but maybe because having both models could penalize them for poor fuel economy with regards to either just Porsche or possibly even VW? Just a theory and I'm not that familar with the CAFE standards and how it impacts the manufacturers but I know it is a concern for them. My contact at PCNA has mentioned these standards multiple times with regards to Porsche and that they are one of the manufacturers that has the most to make up to hit standards that's why we will see a lot of future hybrid and turbo models.
11-02-2014, 02:16 AM
#37
As Margaret Thatcher famously warned George H.W. Bush before the first Persian Gulf War, “Don’t go wobbly on us, George.”, so I say the same to you sccchiii! Don't change your tune. The label of MY2015 on the gt3 will allow it to be built for the US past Jan 2015...or so you said. Stick to your guns, damn it! Don't go wobbly on us!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
.
11-02-2014, 08:35 AM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Eduardo, No worries I am far to stubborn to be wobbly.......I didn't say production would stop because of D.O.T. (safety regs), or emissions. I still believe that we will see some units in U.S. with jan 15 production dates. Although many other standards are based on M.Y. of vehicle (not date of production)...I admitted I am not as familiar with the CAFE standards and how they impact Porsche and if Porsche now counts under the VW umbrella (able to use some VWs in the fuel economy averages) with regards to those standards and how GT3 production might be affected by them or NOT?
11-02-2014, 11:28 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
No, that's a red herring. Porsche can do a gt3 and a gt3 RS at the same time on the same production line in Zuffenhausen if they wanted to....plus the assorted 991, 991S, 991 Targas, 991 GTS, 991 Turbos, 991 Turbo S, Boxsters and the variations of each! There has to be other reasons for that stoppage of 991 gt3's in December (I am guessing emission regulations, but that is just a hunch). Besides, Porsche will not start producing MY2015 gt3 RS's in January of 2015 when they haven't EVEN introduced the model and it's debut is now expected in March of 2015 in Geneva - 3 months after January! The order book on 991 gt3 RS is not open...so they have no specs to build individual cars since they don't know what the customers will eventually order. So in summary, I thought about what you are saying...but it doesn't add up (in my humble opinion)! 
That is great for JP Schnegg. But my questions were directed at GJ who is from NY.
But it goes to prove my point about how PAG & PCNA dropped the ball for the US/Canada market for new MY2015 gt3 allocations. I started questioning Rennteam Europeans & Middle Eastern customers back in June of 2014 to see if anyone had an early MY2015 allocation & production date. I never got a reply. But it doesn't surprise me that European and Middle Eastern MY2015 991 gt3 customers got their allocations early (e.g. July of 2014) which enable them to schedule 'normal' PTS in time for their vehicles. What Porsche AG & PCNA did for their US customers & dealers was inconsiderate. They dragged their feet and finally released the new 991 gt3 MY2015 allocations all bunched up in September, then blocked the possibility of PTS builds in December and subsequently announced gt3 production would end by Dec 31st of 2014. That put a time crunch on 'Porsche Exclusive' (which needs 3 full months from locked order to start of built date) which prevented almost all (if not all) new MY2015 991 gt3 customers in US & Canada from being able to order PTS this late in the game! I am pissed...but that is nothing compared to how Mr. Sullivan, Montoya, djcxxx & others loyal customers feel about their inability to get PTS on their gt3 custom orders! Frankly, it's a damn shame and it's another case of mismanagement at PCNA.
That's surprising. That is not what was told by PCNA to many 991 gt3 customers on this forum (specifically David-djcxxx from Florida) and perhaps Mr. Sullivan & Montoya too. This kind of confusion & back-and-forth is not good to hear from a professional organization like Porsche. Something is terribly wrong with how communications are being handled by PCNA on this subject re: PTS custom orders.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
.
That is great for JP Schnegg. But my questions were directed at GJ who is from NY.
But it goes to prove my point about how PAG & PCNA dropped the ball for the US/Canada market for new MY2015 gt3 allocations. I started questioning Rennteam Europeans & Middle Eastern customers back in June of 2014 to see if anyone had an early MY2015 allocation & production date. I never got a reply. But it doesn't surprise me that European and Middle Eastern MY2015 991 gt3 customers got their allocations early (e.g. July of 2014) which enable them to schedule 'normal' PTS in time for their vehicles. What Porsche AG & PCNA did for their US customers & dealers was inconsiderate. They dragged their feet and finally released the new 991 gt3 MY2015 allocations all bunched up in September, then blocked the possibility of PTS builds in December and subsequently announced gt3 production would end by Dec 31st of 2014. That put a time crunch on 'Porsche Exclusive' (which needs 3 full months from locked order to start of built date) which prevented almost all (if not all) new MY2015 991 gt3 customers in US & Canada from being able to order PTS this late in the game! I am pissed...but that is nothing compared to how Mr. Sullivan, Montoya, djcxxx & others loyal customers feel about their inability to get PTS on their gt3 custom orders! Frankly, it's a damn shame and it's another case of mismanagement at PCNA.
That's surprising. That is not what was told by PCNA to many 991 gt3 customers on this forum (specifically David-djcxxx from Florida) and perhaps Mr. Sullivan & Montoya too. This kind of confusion & back-and-forth is not good to hear from a professional organization like Porsche. Something is terribly wrong with how communications are being handled by PCNA on this subject re: PTS custom orders.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
.
Even now this is a sore subject. When I was denied PTS, Mellissa was very aollogetic, but strongly suggested I keep my allocation. Her words, "You don't want to wait for a february allocation and miss out on this special car." Coming from a Porsche employee what else can you assume but that production is ending soon.
I would bet this all has to do with Porsche changing end of production for usa model gt3's. Decision 1 was to delay allocations for MY2015 until the new LW buckets were available, hence why we were unable to secure PTS early enough for fall production like the ROW which don't have them. That's ok though since all you PTS customers will get February allocations until Decision 2: stop production early because of some inability to meet regulation changes or CAFE stds. PTS customers, oops sorry we jerked your chain!
11-02-2014, 07:11 PM
#40
If we back up 10 years to end of 996 GT3 production, was there any 996 GT3 built in Jan of 2005? I know they were using up the 4WD chassis, and regular 997 MY 2005 were being built. I have a MY 2005 996 GT3 built in 11/2004 but don't know when that production stopped. Gled
11-03-2014, 01:45 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
When Porsche introduced the '88' 944 turbo S they stated it would only be available in silver rose. Later in production you could get it in more colors. I picked mine up with about 1200 mi. from a guy that was really irritated that Porsche didn't follow their stated production parameters.
Maybe Porsche is creating a lot of hype for a short run to firm up orders. It's their company they can do whatever they want on Jan 1.
Maybe Porsche is creating a lot of hype for a short run to firm up orders. It's their company they can do whatever they want on Jan 1.
11-03-2014, 02:47 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
When Porsche introduced the '88' 944 turbo S they stated it would only be available in silver rose. Later in production you could get it in more colors. I picked mine up with about 1200 mi. from a guy that was really irritated that Porsche didn't follow their stated production parameters.
Maybe Porsche is creating a lot of hype for a short run to firm up orders. It's their company they can do whatever they want on Jan 1.
Maybe Porsche is creating a lot of hype for a short run to firm up orders. It's their company they can do whatever they want on Jan 1.
11-03-2014, 05:13 PM
#44
This!
Even now this is a sore subject. When I was denied PTS, Mellissa was very aollogetic, but strongly suggested I keep my allocation. Her words, "You don't want to wait for a february allocation and miss out on this special car." Coming from a Porsche employee what else can you assume but that production is ending soon.
Even now this is a sore subject. When I was denied PTS, Mellissa was very aollogetic, but strongly suggested I keep my allocation. Her words, "You don't want to wait for a february allocation and miss out on this special car." Coming from a Porsche employee what else can you assume but that production is ending soon.
Not that it will matter a rat's a@@ to them, but if on 1/1/15 GT3s are being built and there is PTS available for GT3s in 2/15, I will no longer be a customer for Porsche vehicles. Integrity is a quality that is not lost from just one aspect of how individuals or corporations conduct business.
What Porsche AG & PCNA did for their US customers & dealers was inconsiderate. They dragged their feet and finally released the new 991 gt3 MY2015 allocations all bunched up in September, then blocked the possibility of PTS builds in December and subsequently announced gt3 production would end by Dec 31st of 2014. That put a time crunch on 'Porsche Exclusive' (which needs 3 full months from locked order to start of built date) which prevented almost all (if not all) new MY2015 991 gt3 customers in US & Canada from being able to order PTS this late in the game! I am pissed...but that is nothing compared to how Mr. Sullivan, Montoya, djcxxx & others loyal customers feel about their inability to get PTS on their gt3 custom orders! Frankly, it's a damn shame and it's another case of mismanagement at PCNA...Something is terribly wrong with how communications are being handled by PCNA on this subject re: PTS custom orders.
Eduardo
Carmel